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Secondary education

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Teacher doing online shopping during lessons

65 replies

Dancergirl · 23/04/2015 21:30

Dd1 is in Year 9 at a girls' indie. We have been generally very pleased with the school so far and dd is happy and doing well.

There have been a few odd teachers who aren't as good as others but you get that in most schools I imagine. But dd has been complaining recently about the Geography teacher. Apparently he doesn't spend much of the lesson teaching, or sometimes none at all, but gives them worksheets to do and tells them to research the answers on the school's moodle.

Now dd tells me he is looking at clothing websites, M&S etc, during lessons. Of course this is completely unacceptable but I hate complaining! Would you complain and to who? Dd's not doing Geography GCSE so it hardly seems worth it.

OP posts:
pieceofpurplesky · 25/04/2015 13:57

Chocolate the OP stated that in this lesson they always did worksheets. That's where that came from. I have taught in both and there is much more use of text books and worksheets in the private sector than state.

ChocolateWombat · 25/04/2015 15:18

A couple of things, it is difficult for a parent to know what 'always' does worksheets means - does it mean they never do anything else, that most lessons a worksheet is involved at some point, or that they did a worksheet this lesson. Likewise, it 'is boring' is one of those comments frequently made which is hard to make much sense of. So it is very hard for a parent to know if a teacher is stimulating the class, being boring, giving a range of activities,covering what they should, or covering it to the right standard.

Parents cannot know what is going on in every class. They also are often not in a position (and neither are the children) to judge a lesson. Parents often don't know the wider objectives of a lesson or a group of lessons, or what is required by the course. Children might sometimes find tasks boring or difficult, or whatever, but in itself, these things don't mean the tasks are wrong. They might sometimes find themselves doing lots of the same thing ....again, it isn't necessarily wrong, because there might be a test coming up in that, that needs lots of practise. So, without the full contextual information, it is very difficult for parents to make accurate judgements about lessons - it is one of the difficulties of being a parent.....children spend much of their time at a place, where parents don't know and can't know the full picture of what is going on.

There are times to raise concerns. I would say that they relate to when a parent thinks their child isn't covering the content required (most parents won't be able to judge this) or when the class seems to be regularly poorly behaved to the detriment of learning (again relies of childrens feedback ....listen with caution, but if there is a clear, evidenced consistent message, then pursue it) or when the child seems to not be making good progress (based on reports, parents evenings, feedback in books). It is also worth raising concerns if books are never marked, or teachers are frequently absent - these are concrete things.

However, I don't think it is worth complaining because a parent or child doesn't like the style of teaching - all teachers will be different in their approach, and one child will like one approach and another child not be so keen - it doesn't make the style wrong. It is hard to complain about the range of activities,because again,there is no 'correct' range that should be offered and it is very hard for a parent to know exactly what has happened across a series of lessons anyway. With these kind of things, it has to be left to the judgement of the teacher. As long as progress is being made and there is evidence of that, much of how it is achieved is up to the teacher.

And finally, there maybe more use of textbooks and worksheets in the majority of private schools. Again, I think it is very difficult to draw many conclusions from that - as I said before, neither of these are wrong and can be very useful. Perhaps they are used more. If there are other activities going on too, it is fine and actually spending more time sitting reading and writing might be more beneficial than some of the alternatives.

My understanding of Ofsted at the moment, is that currently it is looking for teachers to show pupils make progress. They are less interested in exactly how that is achieved now, more that it happens. So the idea that every lesson must have 7 different activities to include some kind of physical activity, group activity, IT based activity etc etc is on its way out.....because it is being recognised that things had gone too far in the direction of trying to have a massive range of activities,which actually were not always very useful. Entertaining perhaps, but not actually promoting progress.

SirChenjin · 25/04/2015 19:15

I think it's useful to compare the use that one teacher makes of worksheets to the other teachers - and both parents and pupils (esp pupils of that age) are perfectly able to do that. If one particularly teacher uses worksheets consistently in their lessons (whilst surfing the internet...) with little other forms of teaching and others don't - be that in other classes or in the same subject in previous years - then their lessons will become more tedious and will turn pupils off learning. They may make progress, because presumably they will learn something in that time - but whether that learning will stay with them beyond the exam in that subject when they regurgitate the facts gleaned from the worksheet is debatable.

The fact that the OP's DD at aged 13/14 has raised concerns about the frequency of worksheets and the amount of time the teacher spends surfing online shopping sites suggests that there is something lacking in this particular class, and a conversation with the Year Head (or equivalent) would certainly not seem inappropriate imo.

ChocolateWombat · 25/04/2015 20:00

There is certainly an element of personal preference here though. Some children will find they do really well using worksheets and that style of teaching suits them.
I agree that a lesson should not comprise of a worksheet issued at the start of every lesson and then no further teacher input. It would be important to establish if each lesson really is like that with the teacher surfing the net throughout the lesson, rather than occasionally. And it would be very hard to make an accurate judgement about if what the teacher is doing means the learning will not stay with the children into the long term and complain on that basis - because everyone could complain that there wasn't more of their favourite style and that the learning wouldn't stay with them.

The school will be interested if the teacher isn't teaching, isn't marking,isn't controlling the class, if the children are not making progress. They won't be very interested if a child simply doesn't like the style of teaching, because there is recognition that teachers are professionals with different styles. In secondary schools children learn that some teachers and loud and jump about, others are quieter,some get pupils to do lots of writing and others not much, some are stricter than others in a variety of ways, some are a bit boring and some are inspirational. Realising this and making the most of the different styles and personalities is all part of it.

I would want to know a bit more about these worksheets and to look at them before doing anything. As I said before,worksheets can cover a range of things ......perhaps we think of old style comprehension questions, but there are all kinds of tasks that can come on a worksheet, including group work, research work.....and a worksheet can involve children doing something, interrupted by teacher doing something, followed by group activity and return to the worksheet at the end......you would need to know what the worksheet involved and how it was used.

So it maybe that the teacher isn't teaching very well and there is an issue. It maybe that the teacher is teaching fine, but the child isn't keen on the style or the teacher or the subject. If there is evidence for the former, then it may be worth taking it up with the school, but I would want to be a bit more sure it it isn't the latter before getting involved - discuss with the child in more detail and press for information about what happens throughout the lesson from beginning to end and across a series of lessons, look at the worksheets and books and the feedback given.

If there is a genuine issue, do take it up. There will be teachers not doing their jobs properly who need following up. I am not saying all teachers are doing a brilliant job or that queries should never be raised. I am just saying to be sure there really is likely to be a problem first.

SirChenjin · 25/04/2015 20:06

I am just saying to be sure there really is likely to be a problem first

I agree - it's important to establish there is a problem. On the face of it, one teacher who is using worksheets more than other teachers (which might explain what the OP's DD feels like they are always using worksheets and why there is little or no teaching taking place in the class) and who is surfing online shopping sites sounds far from ideal. I would certainly raise the issue with the school.

ReallyBadParty · 25/04/2015 20:10

What jobs is it ok to do online shopping in?

Doctor? Lawyer? Shop assistant? Minister? Judge? Waitress? MP?

*caveat, assuming teenager isn't lying/mistaken about said shopping.

ChocolateWombat · 25/04/2015 20:39

It wouldn't be acceptable for the teacher to be online shopping for herself in the lesson and wouldn't in most jobs I'd assume.
People have been discussing what a teacher can reasonably do whilst a class are getting on with a task, and many have said that doing other tasks such as admin on line, preparation or marking are all reasonable and common for short periods (or long ones if there is a long test/assessment going on)
I should think it is hard to know if the teacher was actually shopping - did they have a credit card out? They may have been surfing the web legitimately or not. Hard to know. So, would that be the basis of the complaint, or would it be that they have used lots of worksheets that the child doesn't like and finds dull? These in themselves to me just don't sound enough evidence to me to really raise a complaint.
If however, the OP gathers more information and can say with some certainty that worksheets are consistently issued and then no teacher or other input is given or other activity, week in, week out, then it would be worth raising. But the OP hasn't established that, or looked at the worksheets as far as I can see, or pressed her daughter for more details about what has been going on. To me, the OP seems to be posting following a brief conversation with the daughter.
As I take before, you don't raise a concern on the basis of a quick conversation. You establish that there is an issue properly first. Mi would ask DD;

  • can you show me these worksheets?
  • talk me through what happened in today's lesson from the start right through to the end, covering each thing you did and the teacher did.
  • talk me through what you did last lesson and the one before and show me the work you have done.
  • did anything happen in the lesson that upset you or has made you dislike the teacher or the subject?
  • do you think this is a serious issue that needs following up or are you having a general moan?

Simply the fact that the style or activities are different to that of other lessons isn t the basis for complaint. use of worksheets isn't the basis of complaint. Evidence of definite actual online personal shopping is, and evidence of a teacher consistently not engaging with the children or teaching them isn't. None of it should happen if there has only been a quick conversation, as sounds to be the case.

SirChenjin · 25/04/2015 22:38

I agree - it's important to establish what is meant by 'always doing worksheets' and lack of actual teaching. The fact that my DD felt that way though would be grounds for concern (knowing my DD as I do), so unless it was very obvious that there were other learning activities and that there was a significant amount of teaching time then I would certainly be raising it with the school.

As for requiring evidence of online shopping - no credit cards have to be produced in order to surf, but the OP has already explained that he certainly appears to be looking at clothing websites. Again, that would be enough for me to raise this issue with the school, ie this has been fed back to me, can they look into the matter please.

It's not appropriate necessarily to complain, but any school worth their salt would be happy to investigate and hopefully then reassure parents who were worried about something like this.

ChocolateWombat · 26/04/2015 09:15

The shopping issue aside, I suspect that unless the teacher really was only ever issuing a worksheet at the start if the lesson with an instruction 'get on with this until the end if the lesson' there would really be no case to answer.

Schools treat teachers as professionals. 'Teaching' doesn't exclusively involve the teacher talking or interacting with pupils. Much of it involves setting up tasks which the pupils then get on and do - in fact, good practice is less didactic. So, as long as it isn't simply that the teacher always issues a comprehension style worksheet and nothing else, I don't think the school would be intervening to tell the teacher to change their style, or that the child didn't like it. They would be pointing out to the parent, that learning takes many forms and teachers have many styles and personalities.

The shopping thing is a different issue and if a parent was sure that was going on, I'm sure the school would ask the teacher about it - I really don't think they would be using their time going through the ICT to check what the teacher had been on, but would simply ask them if this had been the case. Again, I suspect they would also mention to the parents that teachers legitimately are online during lessons and it sent always clear to pupils exactly what they are doing.

If a concern was raised, as you say, schools would look into it. The shopping aside, a concern about too many worksheets (unless that was all there ever was) wouldn't be a big concern for the school. No marking, no control, courses not being covered, progress not being made would.

SirChenjin · 26/04/2015 09:43

No, I'm afraid I disagree. If there was a heavy reliance on worksheets with little other form of teaching resulting in pupils who were not engaged with the lessons, and a tendency for that particular teacher to use the time created by an overuse of worksheets to consistently use the internet for surfing online shopping sites then the school then my DCs school would certainly be concerned. We're in the state sector though and it's a very good school - this particular school in the private sector may take a different stance.

SetPhasersTaeMalkie · 26/04/2015 09:49

I agree with SirChenjin. If DS had told me this tale I would raise an eyebrow certainly. If it happened again I would speak to the school.

ChocolateWombat · 26/04/2015 13:07

The thing is (and again, internet shopping aside, which we all agree is wrong, although hopefully that some time on the internet during class being engaged in an activity isn't wrong) it is very difficult for a child or parent to judge what 'appropriate' use of worksheets is. What is engaging for one child might not be for another. Internet shopping aside, exactly what is the complaint ...'I would like to complain that my child seems to be given excessive amounts of worksheets in X lesson and not to be enjoying the lessons'
It's not an issue of state school versus independent school, although again, is bizarre idea that a state sector school wouldn't allow this, but the independent sector would (implied that state is better). I do think there is some confusion between what is educationally useful and what is entertaining. The teachers job isn't to entertain - perhaps some children are getting to the point of wanting constant entertainment and are disappointed when there are activities which are less fun .....-but these need to happen,especially as children get older in order to prepare them for the longer, independent tasks of coursework and exams. Perhaps the parents need to look at the scheme of work (which is probably provided or on the website) and see if the topics currently being covered are such that this style of working is the most appropriate for a while. Perhaps different styles will be appropriate for the next topic - it is all about context. And Internet shopping aside again, I wonder what the parents might expect the result of their query to be - do they think the school will be saying to the teacher 'use less worksheets' or 'become more entertaining'.....they will be checking that the teacher is teaching the children and that the children are making progress and they will report back on that to the parents. I suspect (and again assuming no internet shopping) a response such as
'Thanks for raising your concern. We take all concerns seriously and have looked into it. We would like to reassure you that X's class is working on the specified topics on the Department scheme of work and a range of tasks are being undertaken. Some topics might lend themselves more to one style of learning than another, and teachers have their individual preferences, but over time a range of activities will be undertaken, including group work, use of ICT, role play etc. At the moment there is some use of worksheets amongst other activities, such as X which was used 2 weeks ago. These are appropriate for the current topic. I would also like to reassure you that X is making good/solid progress in the subject, having achieved X for their recent assesessment. Sometimes children find one topic more interesting than another, or one style of learning more interesting than another, and it is important for them to make the most of each approach, but we can reassure you that over time a variety of approaches will be used,Meath being carefully thought out. Your concerns have been discussed with Mrs X and passed to the Head of Dept who has looked into the situation and has no concerns, but will continue to monitor the situation. Please do get in touch if you have further concerns.

So I would think carefully. There are times to raise concerns - lack of marking, lack of control, lack of progress, - not that it is a bit boring.

If the parent establishes that the child is pretty certain internet shopping was going on (as opposed to looking at websites - could be quite legitimate for lessons) then raise the concern. If the parent establishes there has been nothing but worksheets and the teacher not interacting at all throughout the lesson for a significant period of time, raise a concern. If there is uncertainty about what the internet has been used for,mor it becomes clear that worksheets are being used which the child finds boring, but that they are not the only activity taken over a wider period of time/topic, then don't raise it - because this is just a matter of taste and the child themselves realising that there are times for certain activities and times for others.

I think is is my final word. Some people don't really seem to see the importance of getting a fuller picture of what is going on over time, or to realise that teachers are not there to entertain. Some learning is boring. Some children find lots of tasks boring, no matter how hard teachers try to include variety. Learning and progress can well be made, even if children are not thrilled about the way it is happening. If there is a genuine concern and being pretty sure about shopping happening or no teacher engagement with the class for a significant chunk of time is a concern, raise it. If it's just that the child hasn't liked the lessons for the last 3 weeks on X topic, I really wouldn't.

SirChenjin · 26/04/2015 14:06

I'm sorry - your post is very long, and I'm not able to spend time reading through it.

Just scanning quickly. No-one is claiming that pupils must be constantly entertained in order to ensure that they are not bored, or that they must like every lesson - I'm not sure where you are getting that idea from. However, consistent use of worksheets with little actual teaching does not engage pupils (of any age - children or adult) and if the result of using worksheets to teach resulted in time freed up to surf the internet then I would be concerned and would want to speak to the school - absolutely.

ChocolateWombat · 26/04/2015 14:30

'Teaching' can be a variety of things. This is why it is difficult to make judgements about it and especially from a distance. It doesn't have to be words coming out of a teacher's mouth.
It can be asking a group to discuss something, or read something, or do something, or fill something in. It can be very teacher-led (which is frowned on in these days of pupil-led learning) or much less so with the teacher facilitating pupils in their learning - the emphasis is on LEARNING, not the teaching itself. So when Ofsted inspectors to round, they will talk to the pupils about what they are doing and if they understand why they are doing it, as well as what they have learned.

I have had classes which have had a 3 week task based on a worksheet. It is a long worksheet with lots of stages on it. Explanation has been given at the start and then pupils have worked on their own and in groups. There has been little input from me during the lessons, beyond at the start and end. The class have made excellent progress and 1 of those lessons was observed and graded as outstanding, partly because of my lack of input. The pupils were all on task, knew what to do and why they were doing it and at the end had made huge progress. I suspect I might have been online some of the time they were working (although not shopping!). The following lessons involved no writing and lots of moving around - I suspect someone could have gone home and said they never do any writing in my lessons either, based on those 2 or 3 lessons and someone might have complained.

Sometimes your initial thought about what a 'good lesson' looks like isn't quite right, or is too inflexible. Sometimes a wider context and the purpose of the lesson or series of lessons is needed to make a judgement.

I'm sorry if my post have been long. I have been trying to explain that teaching can be a variety of different things at different times and lots of different approaches can be valid and need to be seen in the wider context of learning. Some people are poor teachers, but I wouldn't assume that someone necessarily is because worksheets have been used in a few lessons and the teacher has been online. People seem very quick to make judgements based on not enough information and to want to wade in, without being willing to consider the variety of forms that learning can take.

No more from me. I think I have tried hard to make my point. I hope the OP is able to establish what has been going on over a wider period and if there is an issue which needs raising or not.

SirChenjin · 26/04/2015 14:45

Again, no-one is doubting that teaching can be a variety of things and by the time our DCs have got to this age we're perfectly well aware of the different types of teaching methods used. However, the OP made it clear that this is a the modus operandi of this particular teacher - so in this case I would establish what's been going on by speaking to the school and ask them to clarify why that's the case and why there is a perception amongst the pupils that the teacher is online shopping during the lesson. I'm sure there is a perfectly good explanation - or at least, I would like to hope there is.

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