Asking maths teachers: does the new GCSE coming in Sept replace GSCE Further Maths as A level prep?

[Hebegebes]

I have read with interest several times here that high ability students are well advised to do GCSE Further Maths in addition to normal maths in order to have an easier transition to A level; and that not to have it will place them at a disadvantage or even cause them to struggle.

My DC's school does not offer further maths; I have no idea how common it is not to offer it (and would be interested to know). I had been going to ask in school about it, but our recent info evening on GCSE options told us that there was increased content in the new maths GCSE, for which extra maths timetabling for everyone was required.

I am wondering - does the extra content bridge the gap between GCSE and A level in the same way that the Further Maths does? If you had a child who definitely wants to do Maths A level and is thinking of Maths at uni, is the Further Maths GCSE or at least some extra tutoring still advisable?

The extra content in the new GCSE isn't the same as further maths. It stops short of calculus, for example, and has stuff that further maths doesn't, like Venn diagrams for probability. I think further maths has more in the way of actual A-level content, like calculus, and the factor theorem. However, while I expect that the new GCSE will be better preparation for A-level than the old GCSE, it is hard to say how much better, or whether it will be better than old GCSE + further maths because there has been a big row over how the new GCSE will actually be examined and there is currently an OFQUAL investigation into the sample assessment material released by the exam boards.

We don't actually know how challenging the new exams will be, and a big issue with the old GCSE was that the higher paper simply doesn't contain enough questions at the higher end to be sufficiently challenging. If there is new content, but the questions on them are trivial, then the value will be lost.

Another issue which means this question can't be answered properly is that the maths A-level will also be changing. They have put this back to 2017, but if they make the A-level much harder (which is probable), then the gap between GCSE and A-level could be as wide as ever. There doesn't seem to be much joined up thinking going on, so I'm not hopeful.

If your DC is currently in Y9, then they are going to be hit by both the new GCSE and new A-level. Schools are not well prepared (through no fault of their own, I hasten to add). If you have a child who wants to do maths at Uni, then if you can afford to get a tutor to take them through the further maths GCSE then I think that would probably be a good insurance plan.

I really appreciate the reply, noble giraffe, many thanks. I had felt completely in the dark.

I will probably see how DC copes during the first term of Year 10 in September before thinking about a tutor. The school is doing triple science in a double slot so I am reluctant to heap pressure on him.

I suppose if he is not actually having to take an exam in the Further maths, but rather just keeping up with the syllabus it might not be too much.

Do schools that do both maths and further maths at GCSE have extra timetable allocation or do they do it in the space everyone has for maths?

It depends on the school how they timetable it, you need to ask.

My school does further maths with the top two sets in the normal time timetabled for maths but we are lucky enough to have enough high ability students to have a whole groups sit it. I have heard other schools run sessions at lunchtime or after school for a small group of the most able students to cover it.

Under old system (so GCSEs finishing this yr) DS' school takes an option slot for further maths, but DD's school does it same as NG's school. DD's school has said they aren't even offering further math in future because they think the basic new math GCSE is so challenging.

ds1 moved schools for sixth form; he'd done just GCSE Maths, no extras, no early entry etc. At the new 6F many of the other students in FM class had done FSMQ, early entry and/or other additional maths courses/qualifications.

Well, guess what, he's one of the top in the class. (yr13 now, on track for 2 A* in maths). Seriously, it's not important: chill!

Dds school does not offer further maths either & also only offers double science.

Given that she is interested in maths, science & music a levels whilst she is still aged 13 is there anything she can do to prepare/ extend her knowledge.

She will probably change schools for a level.

tiggy why would your DS be in such a high set for maths so clearly able and not be planning on maths A-level? Every extra maths qualification you take increases your earning power over your lifetime, it's the most valuable A-level you could take. It depresses me that there are bright kids out there writing it off as an option even in Y9.

My school will be continuing with further maths for the current Y9, but it will be very much on a tentative basis.

Maths as an adjunct to arts can be quite nice though - a break from essay writing! Both my older girls are doing maths A level as an easy additional subject, whilst their future interests lie in languages/humanities.

And neither of them (one at v high-achieving grammar, one at leafy comp) did the further maths GCSE. You specifically mention high ability students in your OP - I actually think that unless things are well arranged, doing FM GCSE might lead to a bit of boring repetition for high ability students. C1 is half GCSE topics (admittedly A* topics) anyway.

Children scraping an A or achieving a B at GCSE Maths are not guaranteed to pass an A Level maths

Children scraping an A or getting a B shouldn't really be doing the further maths GCSE as it's aimed at A\A* students. I agree that those students should think carefully before taking A-level, and I assumed that as you said the top set was doing further maths that they were all very able.

However, there is a new maths qualification level being introduced this year, Core Maths (although the actual qualifications are called different things, confusingly). It's equivalent to an AS, is studied for two years alongside other A-levels, so only has half the curriculum time, and is for students who get C or above at GCSE. It's more about statistics, finance, practical problem solving than algebra. We need a numerate population so it would be an excellent idea for an able student who is going the humanities route to keep their maths up on the side.

Op - DCs' school doesn't do the further maths but do a level 3 Algebra qualification instead. Both my DDs have find this a great help for doing AS maths - it covers a lot of C1. You can buy the Edexcel study/workbooks for this so this may be a suitable way of doing some study at home in preparation for AS maths.
Noblegiraffe - I think your news about the new Core Maths is excellent!

For comparison, my top set Y11 who got between 7.8 and 8.8 in Y9 will all (I bloody hope, because they managed it in their mocks!) get A*/A at GCSE and all get at least a C in Further Maths, and most much better than that. They have all decided to take Maths A-level.
This is a non-selective state school, but we have a pretty high ability intake compared to a lot of comps.

Noblegiraffe (or any other maths teachers out there), I have just checked my Year 9 DS's report and his level at maths is given as B rather than a number. I think that means he has got a B grade when working through past GCSE papers. His Minimum Target Level for the end of Year 9 is 8a and he is described as working to target. Does that sound like a student who is likely to be capable of a decent grade at A level, or is it too early to say?

Tiggtape, I sympathise with your son, having languished at the bottom of a top maths set myself for a couple of years. When the top ones were put in a class to do AO maths and I was put in the next class down I realised that I wasn't as slow at maths as I had previously thought.

Henry a student getting an 8a at the end of Y9 (which is roughly equivalent to a good B grade at GCSE) would be the sort of student that I would expect to easily get an A at GCSE, an A or A^ at Further Maths and then do both Maths and Further Maths at A-level. I would hesitate to say how that will pan out with the new GCSE which we haven't got assessment materials for, or the new A-level which we know nothing about yet, but he should be fine.

Thanks Noble. That's rather better than I was expecting and suggests my son may well be underestimating his ability level at maths. One further thought though: my son does often find the maths homework difficult and so gets help from his dad. So perhaps that might be "inflating" his marks a bit. Though obviously Dad is not there in class when they are doing assessments...

When you say Further Maths GCSE, do you mean Additional Maths? I've taught maths for thirteen years and I don't knwo what Further Maths GCSE is!

I was also under the impression (based on an INSET with an outside speaker) that there WILL be calculus in the new GCSE. Although as another poster says, we do seem to be in the dark about a lot of the details, which seem to be in a state of constant flux!

We do offer Add Maths to fast track GCSE students which is a boon for studying A level, but we also have plenty of students who are fine without it (most from schools that have chosen to stretch their most able students in different ways than Add Maths).

However, agree with poster up the thread who points out both GCSE and A level getting harder means there is still a gap.

tiggy if your DS is on track for an A*/A in maths (which it sounds like he is) then that would put him in the top 15% of students in the country. I often have had to remind students who feel that they are bad at maths because they are 'only' going to get a B, or are 'only' in set 3 that compared to the general population they are doing bloody well and in another school they could well be one of the best.

Anyway, here's some unsolicited advice so feel free to ignore. I'm obviously a maths evangelist and think that it is really important that students consider the economic implications when deciding it's not for them (which is possibly why all my top set are going to take A-level, because I've banged on about it so much!) Your DS is bright, and good at maths, but because of his perception of his abilities rather than the reality, he is already heading down a different path. This would concern me.
I understand that putting him down a set could boost his confidence, but he might also do less well as he sinks to the pace of that set, if you see what I mean. Can you somehow reframe his perception of his abilities while keeping him in the top set? How much work has he really put in? If I were in your position, I would consider a tutor, to boost confidence as much as anything.

Bella Further maths is AQA's level 2 qualification to bridge the gap to A-level, which has been around since about 2012. It is, I think, easier than additional maths. It doesn't cover integration, for example, but it does cover matrices.

My understanding is that calculus won't be on the new GCSE, but that students will need to know about rates of change as the gradient of a tangent of a curve, and that the area under a graph may represent something like displacement, which I suppose will help with understanding when they do do calculus. I'm guessing that they didn't want calculus to be taught with shallow understanding as a mindless application of a method to a polynomial.

At DS school, additional maths is an element of triple science. Not sure why and even less sure it is a good idea as kids have been complaining about it. I understand why, it is not because you are doing triple science that you love or excel in maths.

DS is worried they will stop it though as it suits him well. He is expected an A* at GCSE and will do Maths at A levels.