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Should we care that 50% of state schools didn't produce any medicine applicants in 3 years?

235 replies

legallady · 11/12/2014 09:58

Well if no one from those schools wanted to study medicine then maybe not but if they are not achieving the grades to be able to apply or are not being given the correct advice then maybe we should.

Certainly it seems wrong that half of applicants in that time frame came from independent and grammar schools. It suggests that our qualified doctors a few years down the line will come from a very narrow demographic - similar to our lawyers and politicians - and that can't be good for our society.

What (if anything) is going wrong?

OP posts:
Bramshott · 11/12/2014 15:36

Can you provide a link to the info or a media report? The county I live in has almost no sixth forms in schools (just FE colleges) so if others have similar, that could have skewed the figures considerably.

Taz1212 · 11/12/2014 16:54

This is one of the many reasons we went private. We're in Scotland so it's a bit different, but a few years ago, our catchment high school slashed the Highers and Advanced Highers on offer, preferring to focus on vocational routes for children (the Council explained it was due to the "economic demographics" of the catchment). As a result, they no longer offer the range of Highers required for admission to a medical/vetrinary degree.

I can't understand the reasoning behind limiting children in this way- are there really no students at that school capable of completing a medical degree? Angry

atoughyear · 11/12/2014 17:22

It isn't a school Taz It's an entire borough!

BluTacked · 11/12/2014 17:32

As a token pleb medical student, I can verify the lack of social diversity present in my even relatively socially diverse and modern medical school compared to other ones i.e Cambridge.

Only 2% of medical students come from lower socio-economic groups or what you would loosely label as working class according to some 2008 report. A significant proportion of our course is privately educated. However misconstruing state-educated as synonymous with poor is a common error. The majority of the students, either privately or state educated, regale stories of expensive gap years, have cars more expensive than I'll be able to afford for ten years (junior doctor wages aren't fantastic) and mostly come from medical/academic/professional families. Most of the students that access our medical school bursary are a tad bit fraudulent as their self-employed parents like fiddling with their taxable income, I'm currently eyeing up an Audi A3 of a student who gets the same full grants and loans as me.

The biggest barriers I personally faced as a daughter of a widowed bipolar alcoholic were accessing the required work experience for getting into medial school and lack of education towards polishing my UCAS application. Applying to medical school is very strategic and I only got in first time round to my 4th choice thanks to TSR and harassing many an irritating admin worker from HR in hospitals to admission departments. I had to ring up the volunteering services at my local hospital for five months just for her to send off the required CRB check needed before I could volunteer on the wards. I had to write to 52 consultants and 24 GPS to get shadowing experience. I never got taught how to write formal letters even in my shitty high school so I had to teach myself that basic task as well. I got my PS glimpsed at by somebody with no knowledge of applying to medical school who would not even proofread it for me.

We had poor career's advice in high school as well. One career's adviser told me outright to consider nursing rather than medicine because my grades weren't good enough to get in. My 5A*s and 4As at GCSE were inadequate supposedly, despite being the 3rd best results in the school year. They were not good enough for a large chunk of medical schools which is disgusting.

There's also flawed medical school entrance exams which are falsely presented as improving the chances of disadvantaged applicants being fairly represented. They're not, the UKCAT is a mere lottery designed to throw away a large percentage of the applicants so it can save the university's time. Both the UKCAT and the BMAT have plenty of expensive preparatory courses alongside the fact even doing the exams cost money. Getting reimbursed for being a pleb like me for these exams took so much time and effort. Never mind the expensive university interview outfits and travelling.

Medical school admissions like most universities are very opaque in nature and their hidden cut off points have to be researched. A medical school might not declare it on their website that their UKCAT/GCSE at A* % cut off point exists but it does. My GCSE results and UKCAT results since they were decidedly average for a medical student prevented me from applying to most of them. All medical schools spout that they understand that some students struggle to get work experience but THEY STILL REJECT YOU WITHOUT IT. I'm very lucky to have harassed my way into getting plenty of it.

The most heartbreaking thing for me is to see other privileged medical students getting in with AAB on results day when my medical school should have considered their less polished disadvantaged contemporaries. I have to work with these AAB students now and my academic 'superiority' is pretty apparent, their resourcefulness is poor and they depend on returning home to be harangued into revision. They struggle to retain information and rely on their overconfidence to swim through our history taking and patient examinations.

howtodrainyourflagon · 11/12/2014 17:33

At my catchment comp the kids have the door to most of the professions slammed shut as soon as they get the letter on allocation day. Three sciences aren't offered. Normal academic subjects like history and geography are taught in ks3 but not at gcse. All the kids have to do vocational options at gcse. This can take up between two and five of their gcse slots. The kids are fail from day one: put on a conveyor belt that doesn't allow them to do academic a levels, let alone the facilitating subjects that the top universities andmmedical schools require.

BrendaBlackhead · 11/12/2014 18:01

There are so many reasons for the failures in these schools. Staffing is one. In certain areas recruiting properly subject qualified staff is extremely difficult. Physics graduates do not grow on trees, let alone in, say, Great Yarmouth. Someone I know has been asked to teach Spanish to year 7s. She does not know one word of Spanish, but is going to have to mug up before every class.

I was reading an article in the Telegraph today saying that we are going to have to find alternative solutions to the teacher problem: you can't rustle up inspiring specialist teachers and force them to teach in places in Britain they don't want to live. With Teach First the teachers go to metropolitan areas rather than somewhere out in the sticks.

Perhaps there should be internet lessons beamed into classes and classroom supervisors hired to make everyone pay attention...

mumsneedwine · 11/12/2014 19:08

I do wonder if some of you have ever been to a Comprehensive school ! By law they have to teach all 3 sciences, history & geography to GCSE. It's not optional. I fully agree that some schools give inadequate careers advice but we just called a few musical schools for advice. Durham were fab and said no medical experience was required but something in a caring environment. So mine worked in a care home as well as helping at a holiday scheme for disabled children for 2 years. Her parents both left school at 16 & died when she was doing her GCSEs. They then lived with my family so her home life is in no way privileged and she had to fight the odds to get there. (We had 5 kids and us living in a small 3 bedroom house). But so do most people who survive medical school (not just get in). It's hard and needs dedication. And as has been stated, a lot of Comps don't have a 6th form so kind of muddles these statistics a bit.

mumsneedwine · 11/12/2014 19:10

Oh and BluTack, you are awesome and will make a fab doctor as you have life experience. My DD had an interview at St Thomas' and was asked how she felt about working in such a poor area of London. She took much delight in telling the pompous interviewer that most of her family lived in Lambeth in the poor council accommodation he was talking about.

Micah · 11/12/2014 19:18

I think careers advice has a lot to do with it too.

When I was at school any medical/vet/dentist aspirations were met with dire warnings if how hard it was to get in, and only the top students got a place, and oh look, you could do a btec in science rather than a'levels if you're interested in science.

I was actually told that medical schools accepted btecs.

If you're from a background where medical school isn't some impossible goal, and people you know have done it, then you know you can get there. If you're the first of your family to even consider uni, there's no one to tell you you can do it, so you aim lower.

mumsneedwine · 11/12/2014 19:24

It might be harder from a background with no medical people but the internet makes it much easier to find out any information ! And motivated teenagers will make it - as BluTack proves. The stats are silly. Take Richmond. Up to this year not one state school had a 6th form, so statistically none of them sent anyone to medical school !!!

dapoxen · 11/12/2014 20:48

mumsneedwine Yes the best and most motivated people from non-privileged backgrounds (like BluTacked and you daughter) can make it to medical school. But shouldn't we (for the good of the general population if nothing else) be aspiring to more equality of opportunity than that?

And while state schools do have to teach all 3 sciences, not all offer the possibility of doing 3 separate science GCSEs (FWIW I went to a decidedly not good state school, and now visit schools regularly as part of my job.)

Agggghast · 11/12/2014 21:38

I think this is a case of statistics rather than the truth. Many state schools don't have sixth forms and often the most able then get scholarships to indies/ grammars for years 12/13. The others go from college rather than secondary school, I would imagine this skews the data. All three of my DC went to read Medicine from a very bog standard comp along with 5/6 of their peers. When DD2 went, there were 6 others going plus 7 off to Oxford. None of my DC feel in the minority and all are/ have been very happy at university.
In my experience aspirations are more often limited by parents than teachers. The financial burden of university can seem very worrisome.

senua · 11/12/2014 21:38

I agree that figures are probably being twisted into a scare story.
DD went to the local comp (only option available) which wasn't very good. Do you think we hung around for sixth form? Of course not! We left and went instead to a different comp, the sort that does send students to Oxbridge / med school / RG.
You would only stay at a rubbish sixth form if you were constrained by, for example, transport costs.

TalkinPeace · 11/12/2014 21:42

Surely its a lot more to do with
unpaid work experience
that Medicine and other professional courses now demand
only the rich can do unpaid work experience

so its not the fault of the schools, its the fault of the courses
and employers
excluding those of average means from getting places

atoughyear · 11/12/2014 21:46

I think it's more than that Talkin A lot of schools don't tell pupils they should be doing voluntary work.

TalkinPeace · 11/12/2014 21:48

Aggghast
Many state schools don't have sixth forms and often the most able then get scholarships to indies/ grammars for years 12/13.
Do you have evidence for that?

Because round here the flow is definitely the other way - among DDs friends at her state college are kids who have arrived from Eton, Winchester, St Swithuns, PHS, PGS, KES, HCS and many, many others

TalkinPeace · 11/12/2014 21:51

Atoughyear
A lot of schools don't tell pupils they should be doing voluntary work
But is that because it would be frankly insulting to parents on below median incomes to expect to pay for their kids to work full time for no money, let alone travelling to city centres and the like

UNPAID WORK EXPERIENCE AND INTERNSHIPS ARE THE REAL PROBLEM

Agggghast · 11/12/2014 21:57

Well where I work, Hampshire, I would say our top 5 each year are creamed off by the local indies. In Portsmouth for example the LEA closed all Sixth Forms about 10 years ago. Where I live, IW, schools have 6th forms and so my children found it fairly straight forward to be accepted on a course to read Medicine.

I think the issue is that statistics for this sort of thing are not really clear.

I agree about work experience though, it is essential.

atoughyear · 11/12/2014 21:57

Thy wouldn't be working full time though. A few hours a week is all it takes. Not sure where you are but there are loads of clinics and care homes within walking distance where I am.
I went to a comp and went into a profession akin to medicine and got no fucking help and guidance. It depresses me that nothing has bloody changed for some kids.

MagratGarlik · 11/12/2014 21:57

I'm not sure if this has been said already, but 50% of state schools not producing any medical applicants (as per your title), so not the same as 50% of medical students come from private/grammar schools (as per your OP).

AgentDiNozzo · 11/12/2014 22:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TalkinPeace · 11/12/2014 22:04

atoughyear
For a Vet degree, you have to have clocked up over 300 hours of work experience before starting the degree
you are also expected to do around 300 hours a year, every year during the degree : which precludes a holiday job to supplement the fees

For a med student : the time and travel to get to an unpaid placement that may lead to nothing is beyond the means of many families.

agggghast DD is at Peter Symonds ..... several of the kids there have come from Pompey private schools .... it cuts both ways

atoughyear · 11/12/2014 22:06

We weren't talking about vets were we? Confused