The Politics of Grammar Schools

[GiftedPhoenix]

I thought some mumsnet readers would be interested in my latest post, which is about grammar schools, especially their record in admitting high-attaining children from disadvantaged backgrounds.

giftedphoenix.wordpress.com/2014/11/27/the-politics-of-selection-grammar-schools-and-disadvantage/

The selection issue has been bubbling away in the media and this looks set to continue next week, as the Conservatives come under increased pressure from within their own party to include a commitment to new grammar schools in the Tory Election manifesto.

I wanted to explore what progress our remaining 163 grammar schools are making towards 'fair access', so providing a benchmark against which to judge political claims that they might be engines of social mobility. I'm not concerned with research on their historical record in this respect, but with evidence of recent reform.

Marni23 - lots of Kent parents either know their DC haven't got a hope in hell of passing the Kent test and/or are actively choosing private secondary education.

Bonsoir yes I did say presumably some of them are actively choosing a sec mod.

Interestingly in Bucks (another fully selective county) it seems that only 10% of DC don't sit the 11+. Anyone know why the figures are so different?

Hakluyt. Re who has actively chosen modern? Potentially me. Given the confidence to do so because 4 of my friends have. Will let my daughter have the final say. Friends daughter is super confident in her maths ability as she is in top set. More motivated than when she was 'middle/top at primary. Borderline pass but has seen the pressure her brother is under at the grammar. Other friend's son passed but chose a school with better sports facilities. But I now appreciate how lucky we clearly are here.

Pressure is an interesting issue. Our GS has a reputation of being very high pressured. Many parents rule it out because they believe this. There are clearly some kids at the school who do feel pressured. Most do not. I believed that DS would feel pressured, if he got in, especially by his poor English, even though his maths was better than both the girls and I didn't expect him to have issues with VR (his problems are with writing, not reading or verbal dexterity). So when he informed me there was no way he wanted to go to that school, I was fine with it. There is really only one style of teaching at the GS, I know from experience that the comp DS attends adopts a variety of approaches (unfortunately his top maths set this year is following the same style of robust teaching as at the GS and he hates it despite being good at maths). I'm very aware that despite the fact that I have, by any standards, a good job, we are rather less well off than the families of my DDs friends, and while we aren't a perfect fit for the comp either I think I'm slightly more comfortable in that social milieu - but still, the comp wouldn't be the right school for either of my DDs and it is for my DS.

I know one person whose DC didn't get in to the GS a few years ago (she was surprised, I wasn't) who didn't let DC2 even try when the time came (that DC would have walked in) because the first DC was really traumatized by the experience (by the parent's reaction mainly, he wouldn't speak to us for months and now takes every opportunity to tell us how much 'better' than our kids his DC1 is). So there's that sort of issue to take account of too - some people have complex reasons for their choices.

I can't see a lottery system working, particularly in more rural areas.
What happens if your allocated school is an hour away? No local friends, wouldn't be able to stay for extracurricular because of buses etc.
We have 3 High Schools that are relatively close - but I wouldn't want my children to have to go further than that for school. Both suffer from travel sickness and cannot last more than half an hour on a bus (they normally start feeling sick much sooner than that!)

Opal. You are a bit "lucky" in being able to choose a "Modern" school in an area where two of them achieve 74/85% respectively at GCSE . Those two "modern" schools out perform all the Comprehensives in the similar demographic fully Comprehensive areas of Warrington/Cheshire East.

It is a bit different here in Kent where modern schools often achieve in the 30s to low 40% at GCSE.

The other "lucky" thing Opal has is because her choice of modern schools are exceptional, it gives her children and others in her area the chance of a "lucky dip" when taking the 11+. This means that anyone passing for grammar school has got in reality a "scholarship"

Hi Smokepole. I really do now appreciate how lucky we are here. I had no idea how tricky things are in other areas, particularly Kent it seems. We deliberately got out of London when we got married partly because the school admissions process looked scary and we had family here.

I wish other MNers wouldn't feel the need to attack others choices (not you smokepole). We are all clearly in different situations and are not in a position to judge others.

"Hakluyt. Re who has actively chosen modern? Potentially me."

Wow. You're actively choosing to send your child to a school with less than 10% higher ability children? Are you the one living Mumsnetter who is prepared to say that their child is middle or even low ability?

I have said frequently and often that my DS's writing ability is not high. Middle might be pushing it but might be about fair. Implying other MNers have inflated opinions of their DC's abilities is a bit much. Especially when in many cases they have evidence to back it up.

Hak. Yup. DD does well enough in her class but not like her self-competitive brother - she prefers an easier life! Worry she might get over stressed at the Grammar. Our excellent Modern might be a better choice. But in the end it will be up to her to choose.

Interestingly in Bucks (another fully selective county) it seems that only 10% of DC don't sit the 11+. Anyone know why the figures are so different

Marni23 - we're in Bucks. All Year 6 DC take the 11+ here unless you withdraw. You have to opt out if you don't want to do it.

In Kent you have to apply to take the test. Which means you have to think your child has a chance, know how to apply, not have the "not for the likes of us" mentality, in some cases go against the wishes of your child who just wants to stay with his mates.........

Actually Hak the two modern schools that Opal could send her DD to have 29% and 20% High attainers and 10% and 3% low attainers respectively. The 20% High attainers is the school that achieves 85% GCSE Maths/English.

Hak you need to stop seeing schools through a Kent Prism and look at area/s where selection works.

Smokepole
I know you love to rave about how great the schools are in selective areas outside Kent.
Why do you not go and live there?
And out of interest, why are parents from round there less cheerful than you - at the other end of the country - are?

Me. My kids are yr 4 but I want them to go to one of the local comps. Most children where I live go to one of two and I would be happy with either of those. I would also be happy for them to go to the school where I teach (except that I don't really want them to suffer "Mrs ET is your mum. That's why you got a part in the play/place on the team/praise point etc" crap)

Talkin. I have explained ( too Vividly) on non Education threads about my life and problems with day to day living. The problems I have mentally and physically make moving not really possible, despite trying to move for 10 years.

Incidentally all the parents I have spoken to from Cheshire East/Trafford (being in mind my brother has lived in Knutsford for 20 years) don't have a bad thing to say about Trafford's education system. A lot of the parents from Cheshire East if given a choice between Knutsford Academy /Wilimslow High fully Comprehensive schools or Wellington/ Blessed Thomas Halford (Modern Schools) would choose the later two.

The point I am making is that people have got to stop being so rigid in their thinking about Grammar/Comprehensive or Modern schools. People need to look at the individual schools concerned and whether that school offers an appropriate education for their children, regardless of type or designation.

Which is all very well IF a grammar school is an available choice - ie if you can afford to pay for the necessary hoop jumping to get into one.

Or if your kids can jump the hoops without you paying.

Which, it seems, very few will risk.

"Actually Hak the two modern schools that Opal could send her DD to have 29% and 20% High attainers and 10% and 3% low attainers respectively. The 20% High attainers is the school that achieves 85% GCSE Maths/English."

Smokepole, you are always very definite about the schools in poster's areas.You might want to think about whether you are giving more information than the individual concerned wants broadcast. I would have been unhappy about you naming the schools you thought my children were at- had you not been completely wrong. Worth considering, no?

Point taken Hakult. However, I have not named schools only pointed out two extremely successful schools in a particular area.

I am sorry I upset you, with my guess work about your DCs schools. I have openly stated through locations , statistics and innuendo my old school, DD1s old school and by calling Dover Boys Crap ,DSs grammar. I have even given away DDs 2 grammar as well .

Yes, well,what you choose to reveal about yourself is your own business. What you reveal about other people is a different matter.

To anybody who knows me I'm extremely identifiable
BUT
I make a point of no longer posting the name of DSs school
and never actually name my local school in a thread
DDs college is different as its so huge and well known

PM chatting about actual schools is one thing, posting it on a Google searchable thread is another

In one particular case it took me only a matter of minutes to identify a school from the posters comments about it - and it was somewhere I'd never been

"I do wonder how many people would still be in favour of the comprehensive system if they couldn't buy their way into catchment or choose to drive them past their nearest failing school to get to the 'better' school further away."

Does anyone know what proportion of schools are officially 'failing'?

And I don't know how anyone could come up with a statistic about how many schools are made less accessible than they might be by house prices, but while Grammars affect a minority of family's in the country, I wonder if the house-price issue also affects a minority? My DC is part of the Child of the New Century (or Millenium Cohort) study: a longitudinal study of 19,000 children from families representing a cross section nationwide. The last data collection was done just after National Offer day, and they say "9 in 10 families had managed to secure their first choice". Given that the first preference system allows people to name wildly optimistic aspirations as first choice if they wish, this seems a very sturdy majority pf parents who were very happy with the school they were allocated, as first choice.

So - how many applied for a first choice that was out of catchment due to house prices? That 1% non-first-choicers will include not-enough-faith, not making a selective, etc etc as well as those too far away and out of catchment due to house prices.

And many good comps do lfourish in areas with cheaper housing!