DS has unexpectedly passed 11+ - should we apply for grammar place or stick with comprehensive?

[LegsBenedict]

DS (10) sat the entrance exam for an isolated grammar in the next county (we have none in our LEA). He decided in early August to give it a go. We assumed, because of last-minute prep and no external tutoring and how far out of catchment we are, that he probably wouldn't pass – and even if he did, that he wouldn't get in with us living so far away – but he fancied the challenge so went for it anyway, for experience as much as anything. He did pass, and we've been told he has a 50:50 chance of getting a place if we put the school as first preference on DS's secondary application form.

This has put us in a bit of a quandary, because we just hadn't thought it would be an option. DS had homed in on a reasonable comprehensive about a 15-minute drive away – compared to the hour-long public transport trip he'd have to and from the grammar. Transport would be an issue for us. I would have to pay for it as DS's dad and I are not together, and maintenance payments are erratic. The grammar is also in the opposite direction from where I work, should transport not work out sometimes. I work full-time. Whatever we go for has to be affordable and workable for me (as opposed to me and DS's dad as a team).

I've spoken to the comprehensive about how well it caters for kids of DS's ability. It streams for most subjects from Year 8 and seems to get good results with these children. Overall (across all ability levels), 55-70% of pupils achieve at least five A*-C grades including maths and English, depending on a given year's cohort – so not bad but not consistently better than mediocre either. It feels like a nice school – friendly, outdoorsy, relatively few behavioural issues. It has been rated 'good' by Ofsted. But there are curriculum restrictions – geography or history, French or German – and I think pupils taking the academic route tend to sit only about eight GCSEs, occasionally one or two more. I don't mind this if they get eight good grades and have reasonable subject choices.

The grammar is in a different league – super high-achieving – with Latin and other foreign languages in the mix too. Otherwise, it's not too dissimilar subject-wise from the comprehensive – but a lot more GCSEs are taken. There's more, and very competitive, sport and DS loves sport. But the day is longer, there's way more homework, and DS would lose a few hours a day to travel on top of that. He wouldn't know anyone there (his closest friends are planning to go to the comprehensive he likes). And it's single-sex and he really likes having friends who are girls too. He is bright, has been working at level 5 (6 for maths) for close to a year and picks things up so fast, but is quite down-to-earth too – he isn't the kind of kid who comes home and wants to immerse himself in a book; he likes Xbox, his friends and lives for football. He really enjoys school, and his teacher has been superb at challenging him and taking him as far as he can go – but he likes the cut-off at the end of the day and then having his own life and doing his own thing, which I fear he wouldn't get enough of if he were to go to the grammar.

I feel that he has the chance of a highly rigorous academic education at the grammar, and all the opportunities that could lead to in his future, but I'm not convinced he'd be as happy there as at the comprehensive. And he'd have to sacrifice a lot more time to school/travel. But I don't want him to go to the comprehensive and then under-perform. I still want him to achieve what he's capable of. And I feel guilty (and a bit mad?!) to be contemplating throwing away the possibility of a place at a school that other parents seem to have invested their lives (and wallets) in for years.

So to the secondary application form ... WWYD?

Good idea to speak to his teacher. She knows his approach to schoolwork better than us. We have a parents evening coming up.

And DS did do some prep - he didn't wing it with no prep at all! He worked through some practice papers over the summer and we religiously went over all the incorrect answers. He maybe did five days' prep in total in the couple of months leading up to the test - not masses, but enough for a crash course. He didn't pass with a monstrous margin. But he passed.

Probably, Coolas, only in as much as we first visited the comprehensive over a year ago and DS has been back twice and liked it. We've kept an eye on its results. Given our mediocre-to-utterly-crap catchment and other nearby schools, this particular comprehensive has seemed like the best - only - option for months. And then last week DS got his 11+ result and now we're all at sea!

Legs yes, we are less than two miles from my son's school. But two of my girls have an hour's journey to school (comp) - leave at 7.10, walk or bus just under a mile into town, get on bus at 7.30 out of town to school (not particularly far, just slow), five/ten minute walk into school - and it's ok. They're home at 4.

I wouldn't automatically rule out a school because of a longish (but straightforward) journey. But if there's somewhere nearer that you seem to like more? I think that's probably the one I'd go for!

He does sound like a great lad. Good of him getting those results. I thk you need to talk to his teacher, they will know him did his capabilities and will help you.

My kids went to a grammar school over an hours bus ride away. The first term they found exhausting, with the long day, new routine, and then plenty of homework . They both settled in really well, the travelling was never an issue, and they both made friends for life there. It probably wouldnt suit everyone, but I felt it helped make them very independent and self sufficient.

I'd be a bit worried about only doing 8 GCSEs at the comp. That doesn't leave much after English x 2, Science x 3 and Maths. He sounds clever (esp to have passed with no prep) and self-motivated and more suited to a grammar school environment.

If he goes to the comp you'd probably be wondering 'what if'. I doubt you would be wondering that if he went to the grammar.

I was a bit apprehensive about a single sex grammar for my sons but honestly it's been fine (and plenty of opportunities to acquire girlfriends!)

I admit the journey sounds long - do you mean one hour door to door? Or an hour on the bus(es) with extra time at each end?

It would be unusual to only sit 8 GCSEs of English x 2, Science x 3 and Maths as that would only leave you two options which would be generally a language and either History or Geography. More likely to be English will be taught in the same lesson time, some schools ask pupils to opt for triple as as choice and it takes up an option block some just teach triple in the time allocated to double. Options are changing all the time what with league tables, best 8 etc. and the change to different courses. As long as they offer a variety of subjects at GCSE, I really wouldn't worry about it and with the new GCSEs being tougher I suspect the Grammar schools will start cutting down their number of options in order to access the highest grades.

I teach in a 'good all round, not outstanding' comp such as you describe and many of our students are happy, successful and able to achieve well. My son went to an outstanding comp, but won a bursary to a local private school which he now attends. He too is football mad and loves his X-box.

For me the crunch decision was when he said he would be happy to play much less Xbox and football in term time. He is still glued to the screen in the holidays, but he does have to use evenings now for homework. He can squeeze football in, but with some careful planning.

I think that you and your son sound very clued up as to what you want. He sounds lovely and I am sure he will do well at both. There's a lot to be said for an education that challenges and stretches you: he's clearly bright and will enjoy the challenge. But there is also a lot to be said for good friends, and a happy schooling, where you can still achieve well.

I would suggest that you ask how he would feel playing much less Xbox/football during the week. Could he cope with an hour's travel and then two hours homework in the evening? There is still time to chill out, eat, do something else, but you do have to be organised and be prepared to prioritise.

Best of luck whichever way you decide.

7.30-5.00 is pretty standard around here - catch the bus around 7.45-8.00 to get to school for 8.30 registration then bus /train home around 4-4.15 back in home town 4.30 and walk home. At secondary most dc I think do roughly those hours unless they live on top of a school that runs 8.30-3.00

grammar's don't usually have a geographical catchment do they?? My son is at a grammar (year 8) - we live pretty close to it, but his friends come from all over the place. Only 1 other boy went from his school, but the transition was handled really well and there were lots of people who were either the only boy from their school or one of a handful. It makes it easy to settle as they're all new.

That said we had a comprehensive he really liked as a second choice and would have been happy with either school.

Is it possible you are leaning towards the Comprehensive because it is in your comfort zone? Secondary is a big change all round - and change is hard! I think you may both regret it later if you don't give him this chance now, even though it is hard, and yes, possibly a little scary. Best wishes to you both.

Sorry OP, you asked a way back how to look for the contextual data about the school. You can look on the OFsted data dashboard - if you just google that, and the school name, it should bring up the info.

The free school meals priority in admissions is because (presumably) the school is an academy. Academies are allowed to use FSM eligibility as an over-subscription criteria where their funding agreement allows this.

The reason I asked about stuff like FSM and SEN is because comprehensive schools are just that - comprehensive in their intake, or at least more comprehensive than grammars generally. That's why the raw 'attainment' scores are fairly meaningless as a measure of how good a school actually is. A good school brings children on, and does as well or better by its pupils as other similar schools. Comparing a grammar with a comp is comparing apples with pears.

What I am trying to say in a roundabout way is a bit like what admission said in a PP - the grammar school might not actually be a better school, it depends what measure you use to define 'better'.

Thank you all for your further posts.

concernedabouttheboy, I've found the Value Added scores for both the comprehensive and the grammar, and they're almost identical - high 900s (980 for 'high achievers' at the comprehensive). Not amazing; not dreadful.

I have also found that the average GCSE grade at the grammar is an A, and for 'high achievers' at the comprehensive, a B-. But I'm guessing that most of the highest-achieving kids in the school's catchment go off to private/grammar/high-achieving comprehensives further away, whereas the grammar will have a lot more level 6 SATs kids than the comprehensive will among its high achievers.

Average point score for the comprehensive is 324, and number of GCSEs is eight to 10 (not the limit of eight that I mistakenly thought earlier). About three-quarters of all pupils are making expected progress in English and maths; 90% of high achievers are. About half of high-achieving pupils are achieving the EBacc, and about half of all pupils are going on to sixth-form college.

Does this sound any good, in the relative scheme of comprehensives? Does it sound like somewhere where DS could excel - come out with a bunch of really good grades and remain challenged throughout? He and I have talked about the grammar vs. comprehensive conundrum a bit more, and he still favours the comprehensive. He likes how it feels and I admit I do too. The grammar does feel intimidatingly posh (ironic, given why grammars were created in the first place), and far away, and cramped.

All along, I've said I wouldn't force him to go somewhere he doesn't want to go - and now the grammar's entered the equation!

I'm going to speak to his teacher tonight.

eatyourveg, where we are (fairly rural), big commutes (more than half-an-hour) to/from school aren't the norm. I do worry about the journey to the grammar - time, cost, logistics when it doesn't work out, etc.

longtallsally2, would you be happy with your DS going to the bit-better-than-average school you teach at instead of the grammar he's attending? Do you think he'd thrive there and fulfill his potential?

Thank you all again for your advice.

Hi Legs

I would have been v. happy for ds2 to go to my bit better than average comp - he's bright, (level 5a English in Y6 sats and level 6 in maths) but would also be happy with his friends, joining the school football team and getting on with life.

Ds1 would have not thrived. He hates being bored and really struggles having to wait for others to catch onto ideas, when he has "got" them and is ready to move on. He now talks to me so much more than he ever did before, and gets into fabulously random discussions of anything he sees/reads about. I hadn't realised how bored he was until he found out about an alternative and went about applying for the entrance exams. He also used up his time getting into a bit of mischief - nothing serious - because he had always finished his work, so wanted something to do!

HTH

The high achievers are the "high achievers" irrespective of how many there are. Also high 980s for value added is not actually adding anything as it is below 1000. Nothing stunning there I'm afraid. They are actually taking away value and children achieve less than they should at both schools. I think you also have to take into account whether your DS would be better off working with more like minded and bright pupils. The comprehensive obviously has some, but you don't say what proportion of the cohort are high achievers and the fact that they achieve less good grades than the grammar suggests the number of A* and A grades are thin on the ground. I think more high achievers are getting Bs and Cs which brings the average down to B-. I would not be happy with this particular statistic. Can you compare each school subject by subject and especially at A level where A and B grades are the passport to the best universities? The GCSE statistic suggests few children will get As at A level.

Personally I'd say the grammar- your son sounds like just what they were looking for if he has passed with little prep :) I went to a grammar and it was great- not just an academic hothouse.

However, whatever you decide, put the schools in the order you genuinely want without worrying about hedging your bets and the risk of putting the grammar first and not getting in and losing your place at the comp. A previous poster mentioned this but it is not possible as all LEAs now have to use an equal preference system by law, so if you live near to the comp and put it second you will get a place ahead of someone who lives further away but put it first :-)

2 hours a day travel, plus staying late if he does sport, I would go for the comprehensive nearer home - he will then have friends etc nearer home.

Argh! There are just persistent pros and cons with this, aren't there?

longtallsally2, DS hasn't got up to any mischief and he has a very good primary teacher who keeps pushing and challenging him as far as he can go, so no risk of getting bored (yet). At the moment, he's working at level 6 in maths and reading, and 5a in literacy. So I think it's too early to say if he'd switch off later in his schooling - we haven't come up against teaching that doesn't stimulate him yet.

Milly, the comp has 30% 'high achievers' (level 5+ in SATs on entry). I wasn't impressed with a B- as an average for this group either, and said to DS that he'd need to be achieving above this if he were to be fulfilling his potential. The comp doesn't have a sixth form; the grammar's sixth form's average A level grade is a B, which surprised me - I did better that at a good state college! I'd expect better than that from a grammar sixth form TBH. With regard to the Value Added figures, it's worth me reiterating that we really aren't spoilt for choice around here. These are the best schools available to DS. Our catchment and the other two town schools are below average at best, crap at worst. The super-performing comps in the nearest city are so oversubscribed, no one gets in from our area these days. For DS, it's the grammar (50:50 chance of getting a place) or the comp DS favours.

It does seem pretty unfair really, that the quality of education options open to your children is such a lottery. The houses in the nearest city with the amazing comps are insanely expensive. We can't afford private. For DS, we can chance the grammar and a wearing commute, or opt for the best of a not brilliant bunch locally.

I saw DS's teacher this evening, who herself went to a grammar. She said that she thinks that academically, the grammar would be the best fit for DS; socially and emotionally, the comp. Where does that leave us?!

An average A level grade of B is slightly above average even for a grammar school. Only the very exceptional grammar schools get higher. Comprehensives vary on average from about D- to C+ for A level grades.

There are of course exceptions with some comprehensives getting similar grades to the outstanding grammar schools. A B grade average is quite high even for a grammar school.

Thanks for explaining that, smokepole. I'm genuinely surprised.

I have just checked the top performing grammar schools in my County, and we have a county-wide selective education system, and found the best A level score is B+. These are not super selective though. The majority were B. Personally I am not keen on schools without 6th forms. I think 6th forms give younger children something to aspire to, excellent young people to act as role models and I think drama, music and sport can be seen to a much higher quality. I gather you are not guaranteed to get a place at the grammar, but I really would try.

LegsBenedict for somebody like your DS, he would be aiming for A/A grades for GCSE. It would be useful to compare the percentages of A|A in both schools (using something like the Guardian's GCSE table). A good grammar school achieves at least 50-60% (superselectives usually 80+%). An excellent comprehensive with mainly MC will be 25-30%.
It sounds on balance that the comprehensive would be better, particularly if he plays matches, but you need to make sure he can achieve those top grades there with the core academic subjects. If you end up by having to push him or think of tutoring then that would decrease his quality of life and might counterbalance the negatives of the journey.

Thanks, Milly. We have no integrated sixth forms round here within our secondary schools; I don't know of any at all - maybe it's not done in our county? We do however have a very good sixth form college about half-an-hour away, which I was lucky enough to go to. So things are looking brighter for sixth form. But I see your point about the value of a school going all the way from 11 to 18. The sixth form lads at the grammar who toured us around came across as impressive young men - polite, confident, etc.

Yes, I would look at A/A for GCSE. There's a school near me that last year was trumpeting its "fantastic" 5A-C incl M&E percentage, but when I actually looked at the breakdown of grades for each subject, there were a lot of C's, and not many A's. 2 of my daughters go to a mn-style 'leafy comp', which get a similar 70+% 5A*-C incl M&E but that includes plenty of A's.

My dd2 got 8A* this summer. If she'd been at dd1's grammar it would have been at least 10, I have absolutely no doubt. The expectations are just so different, and being in that atmosphere all the way through makes a difference. And I really like my dd2 and dd3's school (dd2 still there for 6th form, dd3 has just started), and am perfectly happy that they're there, and it suits them. But ... the differences are very obvious.