Independent v State Sixth Form Dilemma

[Daltec]

DD’s co-ed school doesn’t have a sixth form, so we are now looking for a school/college for her to attend in September 2015. She wants to study Maths and 2 sciences for A level. We are on a low income but could just about manage independent school fees if she were to get a very generous scholarship (no mortgage and could make cut backs and look at ways to generate income e.g.no holidays, get a lodger etc.). DD says she doesn’t want to go to private school because they will all be snobs and she won’t fit in. We went to an open day at an all girls independent recently and were made to feel very welcome by pupils and staff alike which I think changed her view. She’s still unsure though and I think it should be her decision (DH disagrees!). One of the main issues for her is that there are three girls going there from her present school and she can’t stand any of them. Worse still, they’ll be studying the same subjects and the groups will be small. Another problem is that the school has a very large intake of Asian students and DD thinks that they will stick all stick together (common culture, language and fact that they’ll be boarding together) which means that she will have a limited pool from which to make new friends.

One of the teachers said that, results wise, it doesn’t make any difference where you study A levels as A levels require much more independent learning. So now I’m wondering whether I’ll be getting value for money by sending her privately. She has some confidence issues, but would two years be enough to make a difference? Is is worth making all of the sacrifices we would need to make as a family? I’m really torn and DD said that she is worried that she’ll regret it if she doesn’t apply.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Lots of state sixth forms have a cash generating sideline in overseas students. My two went to a huge state sixth form college with a mixed intake from all local state comps plus around 100 fee paying overseas, mainly Chinese students.
DS1 did very well there and made one or two friends among the overseas students. In Maths in particular they were streets ahead of the local DC and added a lot to the lessons.
I agree with that teacher. If she works hard she will do well wherever she chooses to go.

Secretsquirrels thanks for your reply. That is very interesting. I didn't know that the state sector also took overseas students. I viewed the large intake of Asian students as a positive because, in my view, they are sensible and hard-working students. Also, as you say, for someone like my DD who wants to study maths, the Asian students could be a real bonus. At DD's present state school, there are a lot of pupils with parents from various countries in South East Asia and, although they do not have a common language, they still tend to stick together (mainly Chinese, Japanese, Filipinos.) I told her that the girls coming from overseas won't know anybody else here and so will be more likely to want to make friends with her, but I can understand why she is concerned about the social side of things.

If she'll do well wherever she goes, maybe I'd be best to save my money!

I would suggest looking at 6th form college.
DD is at the local state one, which is absolutely fantastic.
Small classes, personal tutors, amazing library, loads of facilities and extracurricular activities.
I couldn't ask for better if I was paying a fortune.

Might be worth asking how many girls study maths/science at any school you look at (if co-ed). Would DD be bothered if she was the only girl/one of very few girls?

You haven't really said anything positive about the independent you are considering…
What are your other options?

3littlefrogs we will look at state too, but the problem is that we need to decide whether to go for the scholarship now as the application is due in next week & the state sixth form open days won't take place until mid-Oct/mid-Nov!
Our local colleges have a terrible reputation, so we will need to look further afield (minimum 1 hour travelling time). DD has her heart set on a grammar school, but that would involve about 2 hours travelling time (absolute minimum) door to door!

I don't think she'd be bothered about having lots of boys in her groups redsky, but I haven't actually asked and hadn't even considered that before, so thank you!

Clobbered positives are that the independent school has good results, small class sizes, lots of sports on offer and is practically on our doorstep. Perceived positives for me include lots of help and support for university applications and interviews, close supervision of her progress to make sure she achieves her desired results, belief that she is more likely to get into a RG university . I also like the fact that her social scene will be local. I'm also hoping that the individual attention offered at an independent school will help to improve her confidence (she is very shy and absolutely hopeless at selling herself). She could also do with some improvement in her manners and speech!

Are you really in need of a bursary? A scholarship is obtained by the super bright and I am slightly worried that if there are lots of Asian maths type girls at this school, your DD may not get a scholarship. Also, 3 A levels is unusual for a bright child. It is normal to start with 4 or at least do Further Maths as well.

If the independent school has a lot of Asian girls, there is a high probability that they will stick together because they have a shared culture. The Asian students may not be a bonus if they are all extremely good at maths as they will work quicker and your DD will need to keep up. This can be quite a pressure.

If there is no compelling reason to go to the independent school (eg better careers advice, sport, clubs, networking, teaching, buildings etc) I would save my money. They always put on a good show to convince you at an open day, but what do you think you will get extra for the money? What will you have to go without to send her there and is it worth it? Is she realistically going to get a scholarship and plenty of these in this day and age are worth very little! My DDs scholarship was worth £0!

Clobbered our other options are:

local provision - bloody awful and not on our radar

State college an hour away - outstanding ofsted but it's very big and I'm worried about the fact that I won't know who she is mixing with and what she is doing and worried that the college won't keep on top of things (she's at an outstanding state school now which has a reputation for spoonfeeding pupils and colleges complain that the students struggle with the transition).

New Free School Sixth Form - sounds good on paper and close to home but DD would be in their first intake so it's an unknown quantity and she says she doesn't want to be a guinea pig. I don't know much about Free Schools and what to look out for.

Apply for the scholarship anyway - if your DD gets offered one surely that doesn't bind her to going there? The school must know that the state school open days are later and people will not have been able to make a fully informed decision at this point.

It's a shame the GS sixth form she wants to go to is so far - do you mean 2hours travelling each way or in total? The former would be excessive, but an hour each way isn't too bad esp as some do manage to do a bit of work while travelling.

'Close supervision' in the sixth form isn't necessarily a good thing - they really do need to learn more independently at this stage. Some studies have shown that students coming from indies tend to not do quite as well at university as someone with the same A levels from the state sector, which is attributed to too much 'spoon feeding'. Obviously though it does depend on the individual pupil and school.

oh... bit of an x-post ... if she's being too much spoonfed now, will it be better or worse if this continues? Depends on what exactly the indy is like.

What is stopping you from applying and then if you get a place but decide not to take it up you can politely decline it. This is not an uncommon thing to do in the independent sector, especially if there are more applicants than places most parents will apply to two or three. Often at 6th form level there are quite a few applicants and standards are high. Have you checked if there's any financial reward attached to the scholarship (I'm sure you have but I'm just checking) many now don't have any financial reward you apply for a means tested bursary if successful.
You say she "can't stand" three girls who are moving there from her current school and doing the same subjects. How big is this school, are they likely to be streamed (or set I'm not familiar with the correct jargon)? On top of this she's worried about a high Asian in take and them sticking together. If it's a big school then I wouldn't worry about this but if it's a tiny school I can see this could be more of an issue. Is it a boarding school? Are the Asian girls boarding thus likely to all become good friends out of lessons.
You talk about a two hour door to door commute to the grammar school I wouldn't put any child through that kind if travelling five days a week. I used commute to work, over an hour and half, frankly it's completely crap and I nearly chucked in a job I actually liked (a rare occurrence) because of it! It just makes your day so long especially of you add in an after school clubs etc also her friends I guess would be unlikely to come form that area every time they want to see some one you end up driving them around again exceedingly tedious.I wouldn't inflict that kind of travelling on my worst enemy.
It's an interesting point the teacher made about A levels. It all depends what your paying for, I'm paying for opportunities outside of the main curriculum that my DS would get in any state school, I have no doubt that his actual results could easily be the same if I paid or not. Neither sector has a monopoly on good teachers. If it's a very academic super selective school sending lots to Oxbridge every year then Oxbridge advise for example will be very good because they've lots of experience, on the other hand at a very academic super selective school if she had good results let's say 60-70% A*'s and the rest A's she may not be considered anything out of the ordinary and even be discouraged from applying to Oxbridge for example because others have got better results. You have to decide what you want and what suits her best

Milly she would start off with 4 A's and then drop to 3 as the independent school says there is no value in having 4 A levels as universities only take account of 3. The school is keen to attract state school pupils and says that it offers generous scholarships to students transferring from state school. I don't think we'd get a bursary because we own our house (mortgage free). DD offers a good all round package in that she is very sporty (but not county/national standard), musical (but nothing special - grade 6 on 2 instruments) and academic (predicted A*s in all subjects). Good point about the Asian students moving faster with maths. I hadn't considered that either!

We would have to give up a lot to send her there - no holidays, new clothes, days out. But it would only be for 2 years.

Not all independent schools spoon feed. We looked at our local very well regarded 6th form college and felt that those students who were identified as potential Oxbridge/IC/medicine etc candidate were spoon fed significantly more than the boys at my DS's super selective ever are.

Does she know what she wants to do after A levels? Its all very well for the school to say that universities only consider 3 A levels for entry, but (strange concept!) the primary reason for doing A levels is to learn stuff not just get grades for an UCAS form... our DD is at the same stage of having to think about which A levels and it seems like 3 A2 choices could be quite limiting. Maths nowadays doesn't appear to cover quite a few topics that seem to me pretty important for any physical science or engineering degree, they're only in the Further Maths.

I'm actually pretty at a school saying there's 'no value' in 4 A levels versus 3.

I would keep all options for now, ie apply for the indie, see what that produces, and see how your daughter feels nearer the time. Better to keep all options open!

happygardening I think we'd find out whether she has been awarded a scholarship by towards the end of October. I presumed that we'd be asked to sign on the dotted line pretty quickly afterwards. But we wouldn't have looked at the state school provision at that point.

GS is 2 hour commute (minimum) each way! She just doesn't comprehend how gruelling that would be and just the thought of it makes me feel ill. Moving closer would be difficult as have other DCs settled in local schools.

I also hadn't considered that if she's in a super selective school she won't shine and may not be encouraged to apply for the top universities anyway! Good point!

BTW independent school has boarding and day pupils and has very small class sizes.

Errol my DD likes maths and science and is considering studying maths at uni. She is also interested in Law. The independent school said that whilst a couple universities would like maths and further maths, most are not bothered and it won't make any difference to her ability to cope with a maths degree.

A science teacher at DD's school also said that there is absolutely no value in having more than 3 A levels and that it is far better to have 3 outstanding grades as universities won't take the 4th A level into account. I was quite surprised by that.

Vino maybe I am over thinking the whole thing and should just apply and keep my options open. Not much to lose apart from time and the £75 admin fee.

The advice given to you by the science teacher is that same as we've been given by my DS's school which sends about 35% to Oxbridge. They do Pre U's and most only do three. The general consensus is that three A*'s (or equivalent) are better than 4A's.
I should also add that we've also been told by teachers and others including mums on here that further math although not essential is very desirable if you wish to do physics or math at Uni and if your DD's school offers it and she doesn't take it the university may wonder why (don't know how true that last bit is).

If all you stand to loose is £75 go for it. Most independent schools send pit offers and give you a fixed time to accept. Some will want then a substantial deposit others less Id wait till you've got an offer in your hand before worrying about that frankly.

I'm interested in the comment that not having further math A level won't make any difference to ability to cope with a math degree. This doesn't seem very logical to me. I would have thought it would make a huge difference (depending of course where she wants to study math).

if you wish to do physics or math at Uni and if your DD's school offers it and she doesn't take it the university may wonder why (don't know how true that last bit is)

Yep. That's what they (Oxbridge college) asked DS, and indeed the main reason given for turning him down.

My son's local comprehensive Sixth Form has A level classes with no more than 16 pupils and for all my son's subjects he has 10 to 12 pupils in each class. Do check out other schools.

happy I would have also thought that further maths would make a big difference and that without it there would be substantial gaps in her knowledge if she did decide to study maths at uni. Good to hear the info we've been given about 3 A levels being backed up by others. Certainly would make life easier for her!

Bird did Oxbridge turn your son down because they were worried about his ability to cope with a maths degree without further maths or because they wondered why someone who is mad about maths wouldn't want to study every maths A level available?