Independent v State Sixth Form Dilemma

[Daltec]

DD’s co-ed school doesn’t have a sixth form, so we are now looking for a school/college for her to attend in September 2015. She wants to study Maths and 2 sciences for A level. We are on a low income but could just about manage independent school fees if she were to get a very generous scholarship (no mortgage and could make cut backs and look at ways to generate income e.g.no holidays, get a lodger etc.). DD says she doesn’t want to go to private school because they will all be snobs and she won’t fit in. We went to an open day at an all girls independent recently and were made to feel very welcome by pupils and staff alike which I think changed her view. She’s still unsure though and I think it should be her decision (DH disagrees!). One of the main issues for her is that there are three girls going there from her present school and she can’t stand any of them. Worse still, they’ll be studying the same subjects and the groups will be small. Another problem is that the school has a very large intake of Asian students and DD thinks that they will stick all stick together (common culture, language and fact that they’ll be boarding together) which means that she will have a limited pool from which to make new friends.

One of the teachers said that, results wise, it doesn’t make any difference where you study A levels as A levels require much more independent learning. So now I’m wondering whether I’ll be getting value for money by sending her privately. She has some confidence issues, but would two years be enough to make a difference? Is is worth making all of the sacrifices we would need to make as a family? I’m really torn and DD said that she is worried that she’ll regret it if she doesn’t apply.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

My understanding - may be out of date - is that further Maths is 'different' as far as the 4 A-levels thing is concerned. If you want to do physics, or more particularly Maths, at university, and want to do a competitive course (Cambridge, Warwick) then unless your school doesn't offer it, you should do Further Maths. It doesn't QUITE count as an A-level in itself - so Maths, Further maths + Physics is not quite the same as e.g. Maths, chemistry and Physics.

So if you want to do sciences but NOT Maths, Further Maths isn't necessary. If you want to do Maths, Further Maths IS necessary for really good universities. If you want to keep your options only, then doing Further Maths is fine, and isn't seen as a full '4th a-level', more as 'three and a half' - wheereas e.g. doing Biology would be a full 4th and almost certainly un-necessary.

Balonz how much teaching time does your DS have for each subject?

I just asked him. 10 hours for each of the 4 subjects per fortnight. He is in year 12.

Teacher does that mean that Further Maths plus two other A levels wouldn't be a good idea either as that would be more like 2.5 A levels?

If Further Maths is more like half an A level, and presumably not as much work as a 4th A level, perhaps it would be better to keep her options open and take it.

Balonz so 5 hours per subject per week? That's what the private school offers.

Is 5 hrs/wk per subject the norm for A levels?

How much time should be spent on independent study?

I understand that if you want to study physics at a good Uni e.g. IC further math or the lack of it if it was offered could effect your chances of getting a place.
If you DD is thinking of doing math at Uni then it does seem illogical not to do further math A level if it's offered. After all aren't you meant to be demonstrating a passion for your chosen subject (I can't imagine being passionate about math, but each to his own) not doing further math if its offered may in some eyes rather demonstrate your just not that passionate about it.

OP I don't think you can do further math alone you do math and further math A level.

Daltec, it was physics not maths. He'd been trying to keep his options open as originally wanted to do structural eng or architecture, so did AS geog/maths/art/phys but not further maths.

DD lacks confidence. She slouches, has her hair draped over her face like a pair of draped curtains to hide behind and is generally awkward looking. She isn't the best conversationalist, is not articulate and doesn't make friends easily. All of the kids I know who go to private schools positively ooze confidence. I'm not really sure how the private schools manage to instil such confidence in their pupils, but it is a wonderful gift for a child and I would love my DD to have more self-belief.

Daltec,

I would certainly say that it would be something you would want to discuss in detail with the school, and maybe with some preferred universities.

If a young person is good enough at Maths to consider doing a degree in it, then Further Maths is significantly less 'hard' (in termns of workload and study even if not in terms of teaching time) than a different subject would be, hence the feeling that it's 'not quite' a 4th A-level.

Definitely worth a discussion along the lines of 'would 3 A-levels still be your recommendation if the A-level in question is further maths and the intention is to study Maths / Physics in the future?' The 'blanket' 3 vs 4 that might apply to 3 sciences + maths may not be quite the same.

There is an interesting summary of maths offers with and without further maths here www.furthermaths.org.uk/maths_entry

I think if your DD is thinking of studying maths at university then she should be taking further maths if it is on offer if only to see if she like having a large chunk of her timetable taken up by maths!

Amnd agree with Happy that 3 A-levels including further maths would be Further Maths, maths + 1 oter. Not only 'not quite 3 A-levels' but also quite narrow.

web very interesting link. Thanks.

We have been told a 40 hour week is required otherwise they will get behind.

In your original post you said your DD was wanting Maths, and 2 sciences. This would be 3 A levels but then you said she was doing 4 at AS. I think it is very important to see Further Maths as making her A levels up to 3.5 and this is the level of qualification offered by other students she will be competing against. A good mathematician will not be a serious contender for a high quality maths degree without it and there is the tuition for the extra exam too which is required at some universities (I forget the name of it - others will know). I would wonder why the independent school did not advise this course of action because just doing Maths without Further Maths definitely closes doors.

Also Law requires arts subjects. History and English are sought after. Definitely essay subjects. Law would present huge difficulties without this.

If you DD lacks confidence then might she struggle to shine when applying for a scholarship? Usually there will be an interview how do you think she'll get on?
I have one at a well regarded state 6th form he's been in state ed since yr 9 one a super selective boys boarding school. So I regularly meet children from sector I also work with children. You're right on first meeting them many children from independent schools do ooze confidence when compared with the state educated children. But I'm not convinced moving to an independent school for the last 2 years will necessarily give your DD the "oozing confidence" look or make her more articulate and a great conversationalist. At least not in relation to the cost/giving up nice things. Confidence etc might all simply improve as she grows up any way. She might find moving to an all girls independent school, where she may not fit in with all, lots of bright Asians and three girls she can't stand actually doesn't boost her self esteem at all. Maybe keeping your money and channeling it into things she can do outside of school would be better.
I might be wrong but it's just a thought from reading what you've written.

It is STEP. A top grade in this can mean lower offers from the best universities.

40 hours independent study on top of lessons that's an extra 5 hours a day! My DS yr 12 doing the much harder Pre U's does 2 hours of prep 5 days a week and he spends an extra prep session doing prep for the schools non examined curriculum. I very much doubt he or anyone else at his school does 40 hours independent study a week. He gets ?9 free periods a week each one is 35 mins (I think) and then 2 hours a night are given over to pretending to be doing prep.

MillyMollyMama Not quite. STEP is used as part of the offer for Cambridge, Warwick and I think one other. The A level part of the offer isn't isn't lower. DS1 had Cambridge maths offer AAA plus grade 1 in STEP and Warwick was AAA plus grade 2 in STEP.

ds1 had 9 hrs per fortnight for AS levels, but 14 hrs in total for Maths+Further Maths.

He didn't work as hard for yr12 as he had for yr11, but still got great grades (all As and 95% average). I think he will need to work harder this year though.

I think there are many myths about inde vs state; there are good state schools and good inde schools; bad state schools and bad inde schools. My ds1 has been non-selective state educated throughout and certainly his current sixth form has provided excellent support and prep for university applications: they've had an early entry group with 1 hr weekly sessions as part of the timetable since January, visits to Oxbridge conference, Oxford and Cambridge Uni visits, Masterclasses, visits from both Cambridge and Oxford admissions tutors, and tutors from other RG unis, briefings for parents, visits to Russellgroup Unis and UCAS Roadshows, seminars on writing personal statements and UCAS applications, apparently unlimited one-to-one tutorial support on uni prep, etc. etc. The inde schools I know don't provide anything like that level of support or expertise.

Happy I meant 40 hours including lessons in class, study periods in the library and work at home. At the meetings my DS and I were told to look at the Sixth Form as a full time job.

One of my DCs made the point recently when comparing the advantages of smaller versus larger class size- the real difference is how inspirational the teacher is , not the number in the class.

My DS believes that for some subjects bigger is better, I'm talking 10- 20 rather than 5-6. He feels that you need other pupils contributions. Obviously other subjects benefit from smaller classes he feels that if your studying an MFL small is good.

With equivalent teachers, small classes must be better for quieter children to have as much chance as possible to articulate their responses or thoughts, particularly for humanities and MFLs (as you say HG more practice time).
For a confident 'lawyer type' that benefit would be more marginal in the humanities but I suspect remains important for MFL practice.

If she wants to do maths then to not do further maths will make her first year at uni really tough at best and prevent her from getting an offer at worst.

The other problem with going private for sixth form is that she will then be judged as a "private school child". Back in the late 90s when I was applying our sixth form got half the local private school joining. Partly because we were mixed sex and had no uniform but also partly so they could then be counted on uni statistics as "state school". I don't know if it is still true but it used to be that Cambridge had "distance travelled" as part of their scoring - so a child getting AAB from a school where no one had ever got more than a C before was judged more favourably than someone getting AAA from a school where everyone gets all As and Bs.