Is it wrong to choose a school on the basis of ethnicity?

[idiuntno57]

I live in a big city. Lots of kids travel a long way to go to 'the right' school for them. I am not sure I want my DC to have to travel so far although those who do get used to it pretty quickly.

Nearby we have one academically excellent school and one goodish comp. 98% of the kids in the academically excellent school are of a different racial origin from DC and his current friendship group. This difference is about 50% in the goodish comp which is a more accurate reflection of his current friendship groups.

Long term would it be bad for DC to be massively in the minority in this sense or is it irrelevant? Some of my friends are not even considering the academically excellent school because of the ethnic issues. Is this a wise decision?

"Gosh, you're all a tolerant lot. I wouldn't want my dcs to have no-one at all in their class who shared their culture/values."

If your child is at school in the uk the vast majority of children there will be British born children.

The stuff which matters - their feelings about youth culture, Eastenders, X-factor, books, films etc - they will find shared interests.

So my big city is London (inner city) and whatever anyone says there are a lot of racial and social divides between people living cheek by jowl. I think my biggest fear with the super academic school is that DC will feel very isolated because of this. It is noticeable at the current school which is about 50/50 the black kids tend to hang out with each other, ditto the white although this is not across the board.

minifingers - not true. DD1's Asian friends use a lot of slang she doesn't get and refer to cultural references she doesn't share eg Bollywood etc. Plus they don't really ever get to share a social life as they only go out with Asian friends/family out of school - no parties, discos, gigs, the kind of stuff I did at her age. Luckily, she's now managed to make some friends out of school and stayed in touch with some friends from primary so is starting to have a bit of a social life again. But it's just not true to say that all British kids have the same shared culture. Obviously it depends on the individual and some Asian girls will live pretty Westernised lives - but some really won't, however much you want to pretend there is no difference between different cultures.

Oh, and my white dd hates X factor and has never watched Eastenders. Even white kids aren't some kind of generic mass as you seem to imply.

"So my big city is London (inner city) and whatever anyone says there are a lot of racial and social divides between people living cheek by jowl."

I don't agree.

I am white but my community (in London) is poor and predominantly African, West Indian, and Eastern European. The UKIP vote in the last election was lower in this ward than in the wealthy, overwhelmingly white wards in the south of the borough. There really are no racial tensions in my children's extremely mixed class. His best friend is Kurdish Muslim, his other friends are a french speaking Algerian boy, a Vietnamese boy, a German speaking Sri Lankan child and a UK born Jamaican boy. They don't have cultural 'issues' with each other - they are children, and they all know how to play with each other and enjoy each other's company.

Didadida - my comments about X-factor, you weren't meant to take those literally. I was making a point about children finding shared interests based on the culture in which they all live, and on their lives at school which are shared.

OP, I had to make a similar decision but for me the crucial factor was the serious bullying of white kids I'd heard about at my old and v academic school. That put me off rather than just the 75%/25% ratio. I'd go and see what you feel on a visit and probably worth asking online naming the school if anyone is aware of any issues, if you don't know anyone there who could tell you.

I do think that ultimately whilst kids certainly can and do make friends across ethnic boundaries and that is as it should be, that's not to deny that they may find that long-term, the differences mitigate against forming really close bonds. An Asian girl who was one of my closest friends at secondary is now the only one of my group of school friends whom I no longer see - from facebook it is clear that her current social life is now 100% Asian, and we are white. We don't 'fit in'. Which is sad (for us) who have lost touch with her.

"Obviously it depends on the individual and some Asian girls will live pretty Westernised lives"

My best friend when I was doing my A-levels was a Muslim girl whose parents expected her to have an arranged marriage, who wore traditional dress, who did the cooking at home, and who attended Arabic classes. She wasn't allowed to sleep over at people's houses and absolutely wasn't allowed to go clubbing or mix with boys except at college.

She was actually a filthy, hilarious piss-taker of the highest calibre and I laughed more with her than with any other friend I ever had.

Friendship finds a way around controlling cultures.

OP - what's the ethnic make-up of the staff ? If it is predominantly of the 98% then I would honestly question the schools approach to encouraging diversity and I would make further investigations and ask to meet the head, and actively seek out minority parents for their views on the school.
A lot depends on your child however, and which school is the best fit for him/her on the basis of raw academics. Assuming your DC is academic, then I would move heaven and earth to send my child to the best school available even if I had to become "that parent"

minifingers - just not true. I'm Jewish and know of 2 boys in dd2's year at primary who started at local mixed comps. One of them didn't even last as long as the first day of term - he was bullied for being Jewish at the induction day and decided the school was not for him. The other one lasted a few weeks at a different, local school and then dropped out for the same reason (his older brother also endured years of violent anti-Semitic abuse at the same school). Both very 'good' schools.

Both boys ended up at Jewish schools.

It's simply not true to say that all ethnicities get on brilliantly without any problems. That's two examples I know of but I'm sure these boys are not unique. An Asian mum at dd2's school was telling me about a third local comp which is conspicuously white for the area; I'd never thought about it but when she mentioned it I realised she was right. That's because anyone non-white at that school had the shit kicked out of them - Asian kids knew not to apply.

This is a very bog-standard, naice middle-class London suburb. If it happens here, it will happen anywhere.

That was re your point that: " They don't have cultural 'issues' with each other - they are children, and they all know how to play with each other and enjoy each other's company."

DD1's Asian friends use a lot of slang she doesn't get and refer to cultural references she doesn't share eg Bollywood etc.

And yet you say she CHOSE to be friends with them and they remain friends. They must have things in common, no?

I agree with the posters saying that children from whatever background/ethnicity know how to play and mix together and how to enjoy each other's company.

And it's not about being 'tolerant' – I hate that word in this context; it sounds like just putting up with people who are different. It sounds to me as though your daughter is simply choosing and spending time with people she likes, and simply not seeing or having a problem with things like colour and cultural background. Good for her.

They're lovely girls and I think dd chose them on grounds of personality. But it doesn't negate the fact that there are also many things they can't share and things that dd has very much missed - she's desperate to go to parties, meet boys, do normal teen stuff. But these girls only go to parties that are 100% Asian and don't invite her! You could ask those girls why they choose to socialise in exclusively Asian circles outside school if you wish but I doubt the answer would be helpful - they just do. Which is up to them. But it leaves their white friends a bit out in the cold, that's all. It's not my dd refusing to socialise with Asian kids outside school.

And you also seen to have ignored my other, more serious point, that bullying on racial/religious grounds does indeed go on and is quite common.

You'll note I didn't choose not to send my dds to their current school because of the ethnic mix (just over 50% non-white currently). I'm fine with them mixing widely. I'm just being realistic about the fact that people do tend ultimately to be friends with people they have things in common with - and race, religion, culture, heritage, play an important part of that - the holidays you celebrate, the food you eat, if/when you fast, the clothes you wear, the music you like, the boys you fancy, the movies you watch, the places you go on holiday, the other languages you speak, the values you're brought up with - all of these are affected by your religion/race. If you're Chinese, say, you have a fascinating and glorious cultural heritage that is entirely different to the equally interesting one you have if you're Nigerian. Or Polish. Or whatever. All equally valid.

But DIFFERENT.

"I'm just being realistic about the fact that people do tend ultimately to be friends with people they have things in common with - and race, religion, culture, heritage, play an important part of that"

The things my children have in common with their friends (who, as I pointed out are from a wide range of ethnic and cultural backgrounds) are: school, favourite tv and computer games, relationships with siblings, music.

The people I have something in common with are those people who share my values - an interest in education, love of family, an interest in local affairs, food. I can share these things with people from all sorts of ethnic and religious backgrounds - they are not exclusive to one religion or another.

Racist bullying - well that's vile where ever it's happening.

And bullying generally.

"But it doesn't negate the fact that there are also many things they can't share and things that dd has very much missed - she's desperate to go to parties, meet boys, do normal teen stuff."

Well - nobody is forcing her to have exclusive friendships.

I would go clubbing with one group of friends, and share other aspects of my life with other friends. Just because someone can't go clubbing with you or snog boys at parties, doesn't mean you can't enjoy their company and their friendships.

There's always going to be cultural differences between people, including between white teens too. It's obvious that some posters on this thread are only panic stricken about the 'cultural' differences of certain Asian groups and that is despicable.

You can't control who your children befriend and I personally want them to mix with all races and accept and learn about cultural nuances. For the record my kids are not allowed to do a lot of things Asians are being berated for. I'm not keen on drinking, smoking, discos, or dating. This seems to start so early in British culture and I'm happy to hold off for a while.

My (white) DS's friends at primary school were all boys of Pakistani heritage one of whom is still his closest friend although they went to different secondary schools. I always loved that his friend liked the mostly Italian-style food that I provided and loathed his mother's curries but DS would return from his with a doggie-bag full of samosas and pakoras! DS doesn't eat bacon and ham because he never liked to eat food in front of his friends that they weren't allowed to eat, but he has a wide vocabulary of Urdu insults.

Of course racist bullying is vile (as is any kind of bullying). But the OP doesn't mention it as a concern, so I chose not to comment on it.

As for your DD missing out on things, I can only say again that she clearly likes being friends with these girls, presumably regardless of that. And as mini says above, it's perfectly fine to share some aspects of your life with some friends and others with others. I'm not really sure what you're worried about, TBH; it sounds as though your DD is, as you say, starting to go out to parties etc, but still maintaining her friendships with the Asian girls. Great! Sounds like she has a rich and varied social life and friends.

There are examples on this thread of people having friendships despite deep cultural differences; and your DD is obviously experiencing this at the moment too. I personally would hope that the OP's child will experience this. I certainly wouldn't worry about all the differences between him and his potential peers/friends; the very heartening message I'm getting from most posters on this thread is that people have important things in common and that friendships can and do happen, and endure, regardless of cultural difference.

cleanmachine - "It's obvious that some posters on this thread are only panic stricken about the 'cultural' differences of certain Asian groups and that is despicable. "

Which posters are you referring to?

I can't see anyone here that applies to. In my dd's case I have referred to Asian girls because there are loads at her school. If there were loads of black African or Caribbean children or Polish children or whatever exactly the same would apply and I'd refer to them - but there aren't, so I haven't mentioned them in her case.

The ethnic mix at my dds' school clearly didn't put me off because I sent them there. But based on dd1's experience, I think it's worth being aware that there are downsides to a school where your ethnic group is in a minority, as well.

My dds are the only Jewish kids in their classes. And having to be the token Jew all the time can get quite tiresome too - not that there is any anti-Semitic bullying at their school, but they have to do quite a lot of explaining... And there are some cultural references that no-one else will 'get'. Plus they're the only ones taking off Jewish holidays. So I'd probably rather there was another Jewish girl or two in their class.

This isn't racism, it's just being honest. I don't think it's racist either that dd1's Asian friends leave her out of their social life outside school, I think it's just that the stuff they like to do is quite family/religion oriented so can't involve dd1.

No-one here is arguing that the ideal is a situation where we live in a monoculture and never mix with anyone outside our own ethnic groups. But it's also good to realise that respecting others' cultures is not incompatible with a desire to enjoy the company of people who share your own culture too.

OP, I think it really depends on the ethnicities and the school you are talking about. People on here are generalising, talking about various different ethnic groups and different situations that can arise, but they not your situation, which is what matters here.

In my area, all the schools are predominantly one ethnicity. If I could find a secondary that was as mixed as 80%/20% I would be delighted. They are mostly made up of in the mid-90% one ethnic group. My daughters will be going to these schools....the only options are unpleasant church schools that seem really rough, not very churchy, and populated with white racists who are there for the sole reason of avoiding the Asian population.

I am getting dd1 involved in out of school clubs so that, in the event that if she only makes school friends with people who aren't allowed to socialise with her, then she will hopefully have people that she can go to the shops/cinema/have sleepovers with, if she wants to.

I visited schools last year, and when able to I asked outright about how many white children there were in the school and how they fitted in and were there any problems etc. Maybe that is something you could do - try to get hold of a student to get their point of view? Visit on different occasions to ask different people?

Academics aren't everything, your son will get the results that he deserves from the work he puts in. What are the results in the goodish comp? What else do the schools offer in terms of music/facilities/sports? Take all that into consideration too. How bad is goodish exactly?

Also, how far are we talking to the goodish comp? I used to travel 45 minutes door to door, and I took that totally in my stride. It was a fun part of my day because friends did it too, just more time for chatting. Something to consider also...if he goes to the further away school, will his friends be from further away so he will still be in the situation of not having local friends to hang out with?

Lots to think about...oh for a crystal ball.

For me, it would depend on the mix of that 98%. As others have said, if it we 98% one specific ethnicity I would think a lot harder than if it were a good mix. At the end of the day, I'd choose the school that fitted my child the best though. The racist mix should make no difference.

If it did turn out that there social issues outside of school, I would just make sure my child had outside activities with a better mix.

"But it's also good to realise that respecting others' cultures is not incompatible with a desire to enjoy the company of people who share your own culture too"

The 'lack' I particularly feel in my social life isn't that I don't know enough white English people, but that I don't have enough friends who are educated and have a wide range of interests. I have much, much more in common with the Nigerian born mum at school who is a graduate with an arts education, or with the the Chinese mum who is a teacher on maternity leave, than I do with the white English mum who left school at 16 and who has never read a newspaper in her life other than the Sun or the Mirror. I'm sure many other people feel this too.

So I personally feel that education, hobbies, and profession is vastly more important than ethnicity, religion or nationality when it comes to having something in common with people.

Dida, this is a genuine question. You say your DDs 'have to do quite a lot of explaining' about being Jewish/Jewish cultural things. Do you (or they) find that to be a problem? And do the Asian/white/Caribbean/etc pupils have to explain about their specific cultural issues too?

I ask because my idea of a good school is one with pupils from a mix of backgrounds, where there is constant communication and discussion about the different cultures represented. e.g. I think white pupils should learn about and be encouraged to ask about Hindu cultural practices and festivals etc and Jewish pupils learn about Muslim ones, and so on.

Maybe I'm being utopian, but this seems to me to be part of a very rich and interesting education.

Without mentioning the schools the academically excellent school gets very good results from the majority of children, many of whom have very difficult home lives through poverty and neglect. It does this by being very disciplined and focusing on academic attainment throughout the school day. It is almost military in its organisation.

The goodish comp has a good Ofsted and is the sort of school that people move to get into. Academically it is good but not great. Both are a 15min walk/short bus ride away. There are a lower % of FSM kids (but not much). The major difference between the two, apart from their ethos is that the comp is in a 'whiter' area so the split is 50/50.

I guess my real question is about how important is culture/race/possibly even class versus academic attainment or should one consider them equally. Is school just about learning or is it more than that.

I will be visiting all the schools (and a lot more) to work out what is important to my DS and but I think I am challenging a sort of uncomfortable internal racism that I never imagined existed amongst my friends and me.

My ds is black and up until recently has been mostly the only black among whites, or one of a few in quite a few schools he has been to. Never caused a problem as the children have always come from lovely homes where race was the least of their issues.

It his latest school however, which I have just moved him from, there were issues not with the main teaching staff who were lovely and adored him, but more the heads of the school who had low expectations of the black pupils. Being in the minority here therefore was an issue. From past experience, I'd say this was the exception rather than the rule however.

Just moved him to a more ethnically diverse independent school and he said although he had never thought about it before now, he prefers it and it's nice not to be one of the few anymore. In truth however, I think his opinion is more based on his recent experience as never bothered him before.

I also have a lot of white Mummy mates who the thought of sending their children to an all white middle class school fills them with dread and much prefer ethnically diverse schools like where my ds is now.

I can now see what they mean, as the environment there is wonderful.