JCQ and ofqual gcse grade warnings...

[nostress]

There was a news story a few weeks ago and again today (bbc eduation section and the times) warning about the results falling this year. Saying to governing bodies please dont sack heads! I'm very worried for my DS1! I'm just praying that he secured Cs and above.

Bonsoir your bit of the UK (Paris) seems to follow quite different rules to the rest. In particular I am surprised at the implication from your posts that French students take GCSEs. I also assume that those entering UK Universities without GCSEs do so because they have different qualifications altogether. This is quite different from a student who has studied for GCSE and come out with rotten grades.

Where you are wrong is that it is harder for a French student to get offered a place than an English one. This would be illegal under EU law. What might happen is that French students are not getting the contextualised offers that some British students from poor performing state schools may be given. However it should not be any harder for a Parisian bankers son to get a place than the son of an equivalent London banker.

From your posts over the past few years it is clear that Parisians will only consider a very small number of highly regarded British Universities. British students, even at top schools, would expect to cast their net wider. I understand this may be because the French educational system is so much better than the British. However Universities are looking for potential.

GCSE grades will matter for some very over subscribed courses. Universities have to treat all EU candidates equally. They only have so much to go on. Ergo if one of two otherwise equal candidates has weak GCSE grades, they probably wont get the place.

Universities tend to have pupils from a particular year group all applying at the same time so they can apply the same expectations to them quite easily.

Employers don't. And if a kid from the class of 2009 has a grade B in maths then they might well get preference over the one from 2014 who has a C.

Takinpeace

Out of interest
what was the exam title and what was the exam board?

In the last ten years of teaching RM (using Edexcel, OCR and AQA) its always been 40% on the test.

Needmoresleep there does seem to be a lack of parity for EU students because the offers demand relatively higher marks in their final exams compared to A levels. Not dissimilar to the problems experienced by IB students for some courses.
Talkin your above phrase is pretty offensive to hard working overseas Asians who have won competitive university places independently of whether they pay more.

Summerends, I am not sure it is as simple as that. Predictions for English students applying to the very popular courses, the sort of courses that appeal to upper class Parisians will normally exceed the standard AAA offer. (I'm thinking of Engineering or Economics at Oxbridge/London.) For whatever reason Universities seem reluctant to demand beyond this, though Cambridge is moving to AA*A offers for some courses and, along with Warwick, Bath and a small number of other Universities, demands STEP for maths and engineering courses. We know of one boy facing a demanding 5 A level offer from Imperial but that is the exception.

My best guess is that they don't want to raise the bar too high for those coming from weaker schools yet dont want to delve too deeply into the business of contextualisation

Instead Universities like Cambridge and LSE are turning down lots of very well qualified students with 3 or 4A* predictions. In contrast it may be that for French or International Bac they are using the exam system to sift candidates. Hence tougher offers.

They might be discriminating against EU students, but this would be illegal and students could appeal. However higher offers is not proof of this. Not when they are rejecting British candidates with 4xA* predictions or better.

Needmoresleep I can understand that logic for universities that don't interview or request additional exams but it does n't make sense for those who get filtered by interview and STEP or whatever aptitude test.
Also this lack of equivalence between at least some European exams and A levels occurred as far back as the era of old style A levels.

summerends
non PC it may be but true it certainly is
money talks
kids arrive from the gulf and the far east with fat wallets and thick brains
and the fact that the kids of top Chinese communist party members choose to go through ivy league incognito speaks volumes

BUT
more to the point : at the C/D boundary - algorithms rule "computer says no"

Summerends, my impression partly gleaned from hearing the Director of a top flight University talk, was that the main priority is to maintain the world ranking. This is done by recruiting both the best academics and the best students that you can. Yes a desire to unearth some rough diamonds from poor performing state schools, who have the potential to do well and who will provide diversity. But beyond that they seem to be looking for straight intellectual horsepower.

If the French boy were cleverer and thus likely to contribute more I assume he would selected. The number of British students as a proportion of the student body is now quite low in places like Imperial and LSE.

Aside from Oxbridge I dont think many interview, especially for the quantitative subjects. Instead they seem to focus on UMS scores.

As far as I can tell, and purely anecdotally parents of state educated kids feel they are disadvantaged, parents of private school kids feel their children are increasingly discriminated against, and EU parents feel the bar is set higher for their children.

Leaving aside a suggestion that this is because Universities are filling seats with non EU rich but thick. (I suspect instead that international students will be very bright and very hardworking and set quite a fast pace which the others will need to keep up with. ) Instead I suspect that demand for EU places on top courses has risen dramatically. Fees mean that UK students have got more savvy about evaluating value for money whilst the internet and the increasing dominance of English means students elsewhere in the EU increasingly look to the UK for tertiary education, especially in quasi vocational subjects like engineering, finance and economics.

Places seem harder to get not because others are being considered more favourably but because demand has risen.

In parallel demand is sky rocketing at top US colleges. Its a tough world for these kids.

So to get back to the point. Anything on a paper application that suggests weakness is likely to hamper an application for a competitive course simply because there will be better candidates out there.

There are courses at some London universities that are so popular with EU candidates of such high calibre that they would have no UK A-level students at all on them were discrimination selection criteria not applied.

Hmmm. There are an awful lot of expats in Central London and there is a minority who clearly think that much about their home countries is better than in the UK. However few would try to argue that the British education system is so poor or that English kids so dim, that there are some courses that no UK students would be qualified for.

My point is that some courses are now so competitive that everyone struggles. And that anecdotally different groups put it down to discrimination of some form or other.

It is a University's interest to:
a. Not break the law
b. Select the students who will contribute most.

The amount of direct Government funding going into top Universities is now such a small proportion of the overall total that there is a limit to the extent Government wishes (assuming they too wished to break European law) would influence admissions policy.

No-one is arguing that the British system is poor. The point is merely that some London courses are particularly attractive to certain sorts of EU candidates - ones with grades that are the equivalent of 5 A* - when the standard A-level offer is 3 As.

But that was my point. The standard offer may be AAA, but many candidates with AAA or better are being rejected. (DC was predicted AAAAA yet failed to gain a place at three of his top four choices.)

I don't think that they are taking weaker candidates. They may be taking some candidates with weaker grades. A specific example is the son of our fishmonger's assistant who benefited from a LSE outreach programme aimed at his poorly performing East London school. His GCSE/A grades were probably not stellar, but he has gone on to do research at another top London University, so I think it can be assumed that he was "good enough".

For the rest, it all depends on a paper sift. Given there may be 13 or more candidates for every place, most offering top grades, very small variations may make all the difference. Playing around with GCSE grades wont help.

I really do not see how the fact the standard offer is A*AA leads to a conclusion that there would be no British students on some of the more competitive courses if discrimination were not applied. DH got into Oxford on a EE offer (and a scholarship). No one, but no one has ever suggested this would imply he was less intelligent than his peers.

I doubt your DS would be applying to these courses, needmoresleep.

Which courses then? Genuinely I find it hard to believe that there are courses that even the very best UK student would not be qualified for.

Its a bit like TiPs comment earlier about rich but dim Chinese students. A different reality. DS has had the advantage of being at a very academic and very international sixth form, including some transferees from Lycee CDG. There are some stunningly bright kids from a variety of backgrounds. There may be some cultural differences regarding approach to work and grades, but no evidence to suggest any race or nationality has a monoploy on cleverness, or that the Brits lag behind.

You are failing to understand, needmoresleep, that not everyone has the same selection criteria as you do!

There are courses at London universities that are very attractive to EU students because they eg combine Social Sciences with languages/study in prestigious EU HE institutions. Top EU students are much more attracted to those courses than to Oxbridge. That is not true of A-level students.

But even those courses would require a good set of Level 2 qualifications (or their equivalent) for entry as well as A levels/IB etc.

I think on certain courses at the most selective universities they probably could fill up with the brightest students from around the world.

Applicants for say, Economics at LSE will be coming from every corner of the globe as it has such a high reputation. You're simply not gonna get that pressure on places in one of the GEs in France, or the universities of the Far East.

The only country attracting the sort of global reach that the UK has, is the USA.

There will always be some UK students who can hold their own and are deserving of a place, but these beome less and less as more overseas applicants flood in. This isn't a critisism of the UK educational system, more an observation that it is a numbers game.

That many universites wish to remain a place of education primarily for UK students, rather than international hubbs, is another matter...

I think there are absolutely some courses at some universities that could fill up their places with the brightest students from around the globe.

This isn't a critisism of the UK system, more an acceptance that the global reach of these courses makes them absurdly competitive. Tis a numbers game.

I am not failing to understand, just struggling to recognise the course. I am aware of the UCL course which combines economics with a year's study abroad and which is very popular with UK students, or at least London ones. I am also aware of the opportunities offered at Warwick through the Erasmus programme, which again has appeal to UK students.

I agree with Word Factory that Universities face a dilemma in terms of their remit. Do they have a duty to educate UK students? My impression is that in the LSEs case they feel that that their primary duty is to remain a top ranked research institution and so simply want the best. They have a second dilemma in that economics is not just a quantitative vocational subject but also a social science with policy responsibilities. Top grades don't necessarily translate to social awareness. A bit of diversity in terms of social background would probably do the cohort no harm.

Yes, it does depend how a university sees itself.

I teach at a university which also has its eyes on its international standing.

However, it also highly values the college life that it provides. That sense of being part of a college community that goes back hundreds of years, and which is very British in flavour, is something it will not compromise. Of course this very thing does bring in foreign applicants by the boatload, but it can it be retained in the long run if the majority of students are not British?

Needmoresleep it would be interesting to know what sort of criteria might have been applied to reject your DS (discounting applications involving interviews). I assume he had as stellar GCSEs as predicted A levels? Do you think it was based on the PS combined with other 'quotas'.
Personal Statements are a very 'soft' measure to base such decisions for the pool of outstanding candidates in the UK or elsewhere.

The college I attended, which might have been perceived as quintessentially British, even back then had a significant number of o/s students , mainly doing subjects such as Maths, various sciences, Computer Science and Economics. A few years ago a colleague's dc applied and had a place there but soon became very unhappy and dropped out as it felt overwhelmingly o/s orientated and he was placed in a hall with few native English speakers so felt isolated. There is an issue that in the quest to supplement funding and meet demand from aboard UK or even EU students may be deterred from applying if a balance is not maintained.

I assume that top Universities, like sought after independent schools, look at the contribution an individual student is likely to make. Grades are important, but diversity and "taking part" also benefit the institution.

American Ivies use this approach to a much greater degree.

By and large I think I am right in assuming that International students tend to be richer than UK students. For example not many kids from France profound look to study overseas, and those that do probably don't have the language skills.

I think in England it is accepted that Universities will make contextual offers to enable a diverse student body and to pick up disadvantaged students with potential. I dont know too much about the French system (other than to know that once you go Bienvenue Chez les Chi'itis French education is far from the world leading excellence that Bonsoir suggests) but assume such an approach is then seen as discrimination.

Shooting:
One thing I have learnt from my and others experiences is that in state or private schools if you have a child with SpLDs you have to be constantly on the ball, acting as facilitator, investigating options, correcting misapprehensions etc etc etc. it shouldn't be the case because pupils without the advantage of a proactive parent definitely lose out.

And many DCs, including, frankly, my own, don't have that. Despite my own superb olympic standard coping strategies (I wouldn't be able to hold down my job otherwise), there is only so much that I can do and cope with and my actual job usually exceeds that 'so much' point. I do not have the wealth - either in time or money - to provide the sort of full time fixing you describe. Most people don't. Being dyspraxic myself doesn't help. Having 3 kids with varying SpLDs doesn't help either. For one, I could manage, I think. Maybe. People with financial resources hide behind the label of 'proactive' but what they actually mean is, they can afford to do this stuff. It's not that they are better, it's that money makes everything easier. Everything you describe about your DD's experience screams privilege, to be honest. And ROFL at 60 miles outside London being 'the sticks'. Try 200 miles.

But - thanks for the info about post 16 assessment. I specifically asked at DD1's school at a meeting we had with the SENCO about DD2 (who starts there in September) and was told that definitely she didn't need any more assessments. Her last one was done at 14. She is only just 16 now so she will obviously need another one although I have no idea where or by whom that will be performed. As for attending university open days - not really an option for a FT working parent. Especially when everything is so far away - in fact, I strongly doubt that DD1 will attend many open days, the cost will be prohibitive and the travel challenging even for a person without dyspraxia (our trains are very very bad and also extremely unreliable). The thought of having to engage in protracted email discussions with up to 12 institutions (she will be applying to conservatoires as well as universities) makes me literally weep.

You are so right about the constantly having to correct misapprehensions though. DD1 got excellent marks for one of her AS subjects this year (she is in a 3 year 6th form) and the only comments on the report about this subject were essentially that she should stop being dyspraxic (that's not what the teacher said, obviously, he talked about being more organised as though that's a choice she can make). He doesn't help her in this respect at all - he only ever emails me to say a piece of work is late when the deadline has been missed (and on each occasion the work has been done, she just hadn't been able to email it in (the school wifi won't let her access the network, she can only email work in from home for some ridiculous reason and her lack of organisation skills means she sometimes forgets). He has taught her for the last 4 years and we have talked to him ad nauseum about what being dyspraxic means and he still resolutely refuses to regard it as anything more than dodgy handwriting and frequently walking into door frames instead of through doors. I think we are all (DD1, DH and me) on the verge of just giving up, to be honest.

I actually wouldn't mind so much if it was a level playing field for everyone with dyspraxia, as it was in my day (when the condition hadn't even been formally named and recognised). If everyone just had to suck it up and grit their teeth and stand up and get on with it, then that would be, within the group of dyspraxic people, equality. Not with non dyspraxics, sure - but at least among themselves. But it isn't. Some get support and consideration that others can only dream about. And that is just plain wrong. And it really doesn't help when people who have benefitted from rolls royce consideration tell those with morris minor or worse conditions that it's their fault, or their parents fault, or that in fact everything is actually fair and fine and they are imagining a disparity in treatment.

Summerends. It was just weight of numbers. International demand for quantitative "vocational" subjects like economics, engineering and computing at world ranked institutions has gone off the scale in recent years.

Advice we got was that DS was capable of studying at any of the top five, but that weight of numbers would mean he might get four offers (you can't apply for both Cambridge economics and Oxford economics and management) or none.

Each will have ways of sifting so others we know got only Warwick or UCL. There is lots of rationalising about whether Warwick like languages, or that LSE dont like private schools but now favour those who offer a humanity along with double maths and economics. But who knows. DS got one less than top grade at both GCSE and AS which may have made a difference. They have to filter somehow.

However at the end of the day each may have 13 or more EU applicants for every place, and they will take some and reject others. One perhaps valid observation seems to be that Cambridge are looking for very very good mathematicians. the sort of student who is good enough to be offered a place to study pure maths.

Offer grades thus don't reflect standards required. Very few wont exceed requirements.