Secondary school choice - race and possibly issues re: sexuality

[minifingers]

Please don't jump down my throat shouting 'racism', but there are race and possibly sexuality issues here as well as academic and social.

The child (currently in year 5 at an inner city primary): boy, tiny, highly strung, a bit camp, good at sports (but not all that interested), musical (working towards grade 4 piano, got a distinction in his grade 3), top of class for maths and the highest reading age in his year, but struggles with writing. Lots of friends, a people pleaser. Tends to dumb himself down. He often presents himself as a mini Eminem - he is the only white boy in his year (two form entry) and wants to be in with the popular boys, who are all mainly African and West Indian. He is mixed race himself but identifies (and is identified by others) as white. Culturally, as a white, middle-class boy he is in a very tiny minority in the school he is at.

Both secondary schools good/outstanding and both part of the same academy chain.

1. Choice 1 - 2 miles away, a highly rated, massively oversubscribed academy with a high intake (45%) of high achieving, middle-class kids. They have 1800 applicants for about 180 places. We are on the outside of their catchment area, but a small number of children who live near me do get in there. Ethnically the school is very mixed, but predominantly white, like the catchment area.

1. Choice 2 - quarter of a mile away, huge, oversubscribed, successful and popular academy with much lower intake of high achieving children (26%). This school is a 5 minute walk from our house and many children from my dc's school go there. Almost all the children there are drawn from a small catchment area which is very deprived. Ethnically the majority of children are from West Indian and African backgrounds.

My concerns: my instinct is niggling me with a question whether my son will grow up heterosexual. Nothing I can put my finger on, but just my motherly intuition. He's also very small for his age and quite neurotic. Socially he has been absolutely fine at primary, and his friends are lovely little boys (and girls), but lovely little boys round here often turn into tough teenagers, and the secondary schools are very intimidating. I'm worried that he'll sink like a stone in school 2. What will happen if it does turn out that he's gay when he is mixing socially only with children from cultures where it's ok to express the view that homosexuals should be imprisoned/executed (and I'm afraid this is the view among a lot of first and second generation African and West Indian households).

My dd went to school 2 for a year, and she thinks 'he'll get mashed there' (she was socially all right, she's tough and can think on her feet, she also identifies and is identified by others as mixed-race, and feels part of the black culture of the school and the area).

If we put down school 1 as our first choice we may get a place, but it's more likely that we won't. If we don't put down school 2 as our first choice we won't get it, as most local parents put it down as their first choice, and it can fill its places several times over. All the other good schools in the borough are miles away and are oversubscribed, or are church schools, and we're not church goers.

Wwyd?

Take a punt on school 1 and have a high risk of getting no school place (or a place at an undersubscribed, failing school on the far end of the borough, which is huge)?

Or take a chance that my ds will be ok in a school 2, which he's got a better chance of getting into?

What is the fall-back option if he doesn't get into either of these schools, and how do you feel about that option?

Gut instinct, based mainly on your dd's opinion of how her brother will fare at school 2 would make me put school 1 as my first choice - but it seems as if either way, there is a risk of him not getting a place at either school, and I can absolutely understand why that would worry you.

If you were to put school 2 as first choice, and he got a place there, and you then put him on the waiting list for a place at school 1, would that work? I guess there would be a waiting list - it is just whether you think he could cope in school 2 for long enough to get to the top of the list in school 1.

Go for school n 1 all the way.
Good luck; gay or straight it's good uf he attends a school where sexual orientation is not reason for vilification (and yes, African and Jamaican cultures can be very homophobic for religious reasons.

Fall back option is home school while on a waiting list. I'm happy to home school. DH not.

On phone, but google 'equal preference'. You do not jeopardise your chances with school 2 by putting it second. You should always put the schools in the order you want them. If you don't get into school 1, you'd get allocated school 2 over someone who had put it first if you came higher on entrance criteria (eg lived closer).

Are you sure you know how the applications system works? If you are in England then the order you apply for schools should make no difference in getting in.

Put down school 1 first and school 2 second. If you fulfill the requirements for 1 you'll get in. If not then you'll be tested against the requirements for school 2 on exactly the same basis as the people who put it first.

Feel free to double check against your local authority's guidelines (and I can't speak for Scotland) but that is the situation as I've always understood it from MN school threads.

If we don't put down school 2 as our first choice we won't get it

Assuming you are in England that is not true. You don't get priority for admission to a school by naming it as first choice. It makes no difference how oversubscribed the school is. Your chances of a place are not affected by whether you make it your first choice or your last choice. All that matters is where you are on the admission criteria.

You can safely make school 1 your first choice and school 2 your second choice. That way you may win the jackpot and get into school 1 but if you don't you should still get a place at school 2.

My understanding is that local authorities try to allocate as many children as possible to their first choice school.

But looking at the admissions again, it seems that offers are made by the school without them knowing what your preferences are.

Which is really bloody confusing.

"All that matters is where you are on the admission criteria."

The two academies I mention select according to a 'fair banding' process, which is quite obscure.

I suspect that being in a top ability group and living close to school 2 will give my ds a much better chance of getting in as there are fewer very able children living close to this school compared to school 1, which is surrounded by very expensive properties and well-off families.

These children who you describe as 'African and West Indian' are almost certainly BRITISH children.

If you want to send your child to a school with lots of white 'high achieving middle class' kids, then make your choice accordingly. Personally I look at outcomes when making my decisions.

Because of course in your world view there are no such people as black, middle class high achievers...we all live in the ghetto right? How sad considering your own child is mixed race.

Incidentally I am the daughter of West Indian migrants. My son has a gay cousin and a gay god-father. Your ridiculous presumption that black children at his school are inherently anti gay offends and insults.

The only homophobia my relatives has encountered has come from you white folk!

"These children who you describe as 'African and West Indian' are almost certainly BRITISH children."

Of course they are. And their parents believe that gays should be shot/imprisoned.

I suspect many of them will grow up sharing their parent's political and cultural views.

"Because of course in your world view there are no such people as black, middle class high achievers..."

What, you mean people like my husband?

Don't be a fucking arse.

Sadly, many middle class black professionals who live in my area when their children are at primary fuck off to the middle-class white parts of the borough when their children hit secondary age, because they don't want their children to go to the local schools where they'll be mixing with poor black children.

Prejudice and discrimination - you find it in all races you know. Have to say, the number of black families I know - particularly those with boys - who cripple themselves paying school fees or undertake years of tutoring to get in to the local grammar/get bursaries for the local private schools is EPIC.

There is loads of social selection going on when it comes to schools choice, and middle class black families in this area are up to their neck in it even further than local middle-class white families. They feel less guilty about it though, because of they feel that getting middle-class black boys away from working class black boys is essential in order to encourage aspiration and reduce the likelihood of them getting involved in gang activities, which are an unfortunate but long standing feature of life in my post-code.

My understanding is that local authorities try to allocate as many children as possible to their first choice school

No, that isn't how it works. As it happens a high proportion of children do get their first choice school but that isn't through giving priority to people naming the school as first choice. What happens is that your child is looked at against the admission criteria for each school named as a preference. If they are high enough up the admission criteria they qualify for an offer from that school. The order of your preferences only comes into play if your child qualifies for an offer from more than one school. In that case you will be offered the highest preference and any places from other schools will be reallocated to other children.

The two academies I mention select according to a 'fair banding' process, which is quite obscure.

Fair banding is intended to ensure a proper spread of abilities in the intake, preventing it being skewed by better off families moving close to the school. All children applying are tested and placed in the appropriate band according to their test result. An equal number of places is then offered to each band. So yes, if your son is in the top band and there are very few in that band living close to the school he will have a good chance of getting a place.

"I am the daughter of West Indian migrants. My son has a gay cousin and a gay god-father. Your ridiculous presumption that black children at his school are inherently anti gay offends and insults."

But West Indian and African culture is overwhelmingly homophobic.

I congratulate your family on being accepting, but I'm afraid you are the exception, not the rule.

And Raisin, if the black professionals in my area stopped sending their children to faith schools, leaving the area when their children reach secondary age, or forking out for private schools, the local schools would be much better places for everyone, and the poor black children in those schools would have more and better role models which would encourage them to achieve and aspire.

Have you thought about a bursary at an independent school. Many boys independent schools offer 100 per cent bursaries.
This is not to be confused with a scholarship. He just has to pass the entrance exam and then if you fulfill their criteria you get the bursary. You can apply along side the state school. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

It sounds like you live in a very big multicultural city, so why are these schools the only choices?

I know I'm in a minority on this kind of thing. I would let my DS choose. Talk thru every issue together which means my perspective has a huge influence, but their choice.

minifingers the moment you called me "a fucking arse", thus showing exactly just what kind of person you are, is the moment I lost the tiny amount of interest I had in your post.

You talk about homophobia, all the while displaying bigotry and prejudice in every pathetic utterance.

I don't think you need to make this as a race issue. You live in Croydon. If you explained, that people would understand straight away. Why do you need to make this about Africans and West Indians?

Either move out of Croydon to somewhere leafier, or send him to Whitgift or something. It surely isn't that complex that you need to start ranting on about homophobic African parents in relation to a pre-pubescent boy?

Or send him to grammar school?

"Why do you need to make this about Africans and West Indians?"

Because the school in question is predominantly African and West Indian, and intense homophobia is a feature of these cultures. Schools are often homophobic places anyway, without large numbers of the children coming from families who support criminalising homosexuality.

Can't move, and can't pay for private. The grammars in the area are super selective and my son is very unlikely to get in.

As for 'ranting' - fine. My son is entering puberty (he will be 11 in September). If he turns out to be gay he will probably be aware of it quite shortly, if he's not suspecting something already. The thought of him attending a school where he will come into contact with large numbers of people who are openly and uninhibitedly homophobic worries me.

I have to say, I've read the responses here and all it confirms for me is that people who don't live in areas like this don't really understand what the school culture and what youth culture in deprived inner city areas are like.

And only on mumsnet would a question about school choices meet with a casual 'just send them to a private school' let them eat cake .

I'm not sure what you want to hear?

I don't think my son is gay, but he is top of his class for maths blah blah all the rest of it too. I think he is vulnerable to this sort of bullying and I've chosen to avoid the local comp in great part because of this. He still gets picked on at his prep school, fairly low-level though, as he's an easy target, I mean his sister's friend who is only 7 will pick on him because she knows she gets a rise out of it.

You've got some choices here:

• name the actual schools and ask people about their own personal experiences, rather than making assumptions based on people's race, to try and better inform your decisions
• move
• pay (or get a bursary maybe)
• train like hell for the grammar school exam

What isn't going to help you is ranting about homophobic black people.

So saying that you think African and Carubvean culture is homophobic is 'ranting about black people'?

It's not.

It's expressing a valid view that people who grow up in families from cultures where homosexuality is widely reviled and criminalised are more likely themselves to be deeply homophobic.

Don't try to finger me as a racist. I married into a black family, my children are mixed race and go to a school which is more than 80% non white, and it's never been a problem or an issue for me. What's turned this into an issue for me isn't race - it's culture. And having a child who I think is vulnerable.

Incidentally, Aga, are you speaking from living in a poor area in an inner city? With children attending big inner city comprehensives? Oh no, hang on, you have sent your child to a private school. That isn't an option for us.

Thanks for your concern not

Most boys that age are homophobic, my son was told he is gay and has AIDS by a white middle class boy at his private school.

If your son is effete and a target for bullies then that's going to pertain across every racial boundary.

I didn't say you were racist, I just said I think you are going about this the wrong way.

I don't know what you want me to tell you about your inner city comprehensives. You don't want to name them to get proper advice, you don't seem to be doing anything other than complaining about a culture of homophobia, in relation to a child who probably isn't gay. What's the point? Do you want to start a tolerance campaign ? Because if they are viciously homophobic there is fuck all you can do about it.

"African and Caribbean culture" What culture would that be then? Africa is a continent of many nations; the Caribbean is a group of many and varied countries. They are not one homogeneous entity.

You are a racist, whether or not you have married into a black family. Your sweeping generalisations, racial profiling and stereotyping demonstrate this.

And what parents are so paranoid about their 10 year old's sexuality that they are making secondary school decisions based on it?

There is a fine old saying - keep your mouth shut and have people think you're a fool; open it and remove all doubt.

You my dear are a fool. A racist, paranoid, ill informed fool.

Minifingers, if your son is exactly as described, with flair in Academia and music and sport, and is top in a couple of subjects, then he would be a candidate for a scholarship at many independent schools, which would in turn open up option of him getting a bursary to cover fees. Worth looking into. The better indie schools are means-blind and will offer a place regardless of ability to pay and bursar will then work with family to make it happen. There are some very good indies for quirky kids.

Toapoint - we've explored the bursary/scholarship thing, and it's not really feasible. For music scholarships they are looking for at least grade 5 in one instrument and a second instrument to a similar grade. Really good pianists are common in London and you get a surprising number of children playing at grade 6/7 in year six. If I'd planned to go for a scholarship when he started music I would have encouraged him to learn a desirable instrument like bassoon or something rather than piano as the competition for scholarships and bursaries for pianists is especially strong. As it is he'll only be grade 4 in piano when we go through the application process and his second instrument is percussion which schools are really not that interested in unless a child is a virtuoso. As for bursaries, we have a household income of 70k, which at best would result in a bursary of 2 or 3k. I know that Whitgift and Trinity give out many bursaries (my nephews have one each) but my understanding is that they taper off to nothing at a household income of 75k.

On paper our income looks like we could just about afford private school fees but we couldn't really - not with ds2 coming up a year behind ds1 - he has ASD, no statement and may well, without tutoring, be leaving primary with a level 2a in his writing. :-( If ds 1 was at private ds 2 would have to drop his music lessons and we'd have to forget any other activities for him. If we only had 1 child I can see us agreeing to have no holidays/activities/live on baked beans for 5 years to fund schooling for ds1, but I couldn't in all conscience do this and expect dd and ds2 to go without, given that they need money investing in their schooling even more than ds 1, as they struggle academically more than he does.