Secondary school choice - race and possibly issues re: sexuality

[minifingers]

Please don't jump down my throat shouting 'racism', but there are race and possibly sexuality issues here as well as academic and social.

The child (currently in year 5 at an inner city primary): boy, tiny, highly strung, a bit camp, good at sports (but not all that interested), musical (working towards grade 4 piano, got a distinction in his grade 3), top of class for maths and the highest reading age in his year, but struggles with writing. Lots of friends, a people pleaser. Tends to dumb himself down. He often presents himself as a mini Eminem - he is the only white boy in his year (two form entry) and wants to be in with the popular boys, who are all mainly African and West Indian. He is mixed race himself but identifies (and is identified by others) as white. Culturally, as a white, middle-class boy he is in a very tiny minority in the school he is at.

Both secondary schools good/outstanding and both part of the same academy chain.

1. Choice 1 - 2 miles away, a highly rated, massively oversubscribed academy with a high intake (45%) of high achieving, middle-class kids. They have 1800 applicants for about 180 places. We are on the outside of their catchment area, but a small number of children who live near me do get in there. Ethnically the school is very mixed, but predominantly white, like the catchment area.

1. Choice 2 - quarter of a mile away, huge, oversubscribed, successful and popular academy with much lower intake of high achieving children (26%). This school is a 5 minute walk from our house and many children from my dc's school go there. Almost all the children there are drawn from a small catchment area which is very deprived. Ethnically the majority of children are from West Indian and African backgrounds.

My concerns: my instinct is niggling me with a question whether my son will grow up heterosexual. Nothing I can put my finger on, but just my motherly intuition. He's also very small for his age and quite neurotic. Socially he has been absolutely fine at primary, and his friends are lovely little boys (and girls), but lovely little boys round here often turn into tough teenagers, and the secondary schools are very intimidating. I'm worried that he'll sink like a stone in school 2. What will happen if it does turn out that he's gay when he is mixing socially only with children from cultures where it's ok to express the view that homosexuals should be imprisoned/executed (and I'm afraid this is the view among a lot of first and second generation African and West Indian households).

My dd went to school 2 for a year, and she thinks 'he'll get mashed there' (she was socially all right, she's tough and can think on her feet, she also identifies and is identified by others as mixed-race, and feels part of the black culture of the school and the area).

If we put down school 1 as our first choice we may get a place, but it's more likely that we won't. If we don't put down school 2 as our first choice we won't get it, as most local parents put it down as their first choice, and it can fill its places several times over. All the other good schools in the borough are miles away and are oversubscribed, or are church schools, and we're not church goers.

Wwyd?

Take a punt on school 1 and have a high risk of getting no school place (or a place at an undersubscribed, failing school on the far end of the borough, which is huge)?

Or take a chance that my ds will be ok in a school 2, which he's got a better chance of getting into?

Re: him being top in several subjects, it does help that he's the oldest in his year and that there are very very few children from professional families at the school. A small handful of children in his year are tutored, but almost all do the group tutor sessions - you know Kumon maths etc. Stick ds in a class in a little church school in a middle class area and I'm not sure he'd stand out as much.

So you earn £70k/year and you can't move?

To be fair homosexuality is actively illegal in roughly 35 African countries and not recognised in around 18 more. That means an inequality in rights in around 53 out of 59 countries or in 90% of Africa. If the stats were similar for Europe I wouldn't challenge someone labelling European culture (culture not people) as homophobic. That's before you get to the fact that 5 African countries still have or 'tolerate' the death penalty for being gay.

But the OP's son isn't even gay!!!

What a ridiculous attitude, I would argue that it's your issue rather than anyone else's. And if you think you can't be racist just because you married a black man - you're wrong because you certainly sound like one with those backwards, ignorant views.

My three children are all mixed race ( I am half white/black) - two of them being 3/4 black and darkskinned - means they are usually considered to be black by others.

My eldest boy is also very effeminate and I wouldn't mind guessing he will also turn out to be gay himself. So black, effeminate, and drumroll please we live in Hackney. AND they go to a school which is predominantly working class (aka 'poor' as you would describe them) black Afro/Caribbean.

He has never had any issues, and growing up in the inner city with black, gay relatives and friends neither have I. There are nasty, spiteful and homophobic types across all races and social classes. If anything will damage your son at all at all it will be your own nasty and negative attitude which causes you to stereotype working class black children and their families.

Raisin - maybe you have examples of African and Caribbean countries that have strong equality legislation protecting the human rights of homosexuals?

To give a parallel - you would have no problem sending your black child into a school where 80% of the children came from families from countries where race discrimination was written into the constitution?

More fool you then.

10 year olds are entering puberty - it's got nothing to do with "paranoia" - there are tens of thousands of children of this age who know they are different. Maybe the fact that you don't understand it is evidence that you really have bugger all understanding of how gay adolescents experience life - despite you having family members who are gay.

If you took race and sexuality out of your post, MN would be advising that you send your DS to the school where he would best fit. This is school 1.

You don't need to send your son to school 2 simply to prove you aren't racist.

But OP is talking a load of shite ranting on and on about gay rights in Africa when the reality is that homophobia is everywhere and the important thing is how the specific school deals with it, not whether there are too many Africans there.

Those children are not African or West Indian but are British. Besides no matter which secondary school you send your son to whether it has poor black children or well off middle class white children homophobia will be present.

By the way why are you linking the children of this country for the actions of other countries.

And how do you know the parents of these children are homophobic have they expressed homophobic behaviour which you have seen or are you basing it on stereotypes, prejudices. ......oh.

"But OP is talking a load of shite ranting on and on about gay rights in Africa when the reality is that homophobia is everywhere"

Homophobia IS everywhere. You are right.

But children who come from cultures where it is absolutely acceptable to be openly homophobic - to express views that gays should be imprisoned, ARE much, much more likely to hold these views themselves.

My children's friends are British, but many of them were not born in the UK. They consider themselves Nigerian/Kenyan/Jamaican just as much as they consider themselves British. Many of my children's friends weren't born in the UK, and even ones who were return to their parents country of origin ever year for long holidays and to stay with relatives. Many also attend evangelical and baptist churches. This idea that everyone buys lock stock and barrel into British culture the minute they move here - they don't, and neither should they.

And aga - can you stop with the references to 'ranting'? I'm not 'ranting', I'm expressing a view - not shouting it or forcing it down your throat. I'm trying to explain my feelings about the reality of my life, my children's lives and the community in which they have grown up and in which they'll grow into adulthood. You describing my words as 'ranting' is a rather nasty way of trying to paint me as a racist for expressing concerns about entrenched homophobic attitudes in the community in which my children are living. Not fair.

If you think your ds is bright enough for Whitgift or Trinity then what have you got to lose in trying him for the Sutton Grammars? The First Stage Eligibility test is all multiple choice which will suit his maths ability and high reading age. IME all the academic boys schools in South London/Surrey are primarily concerned will maths ability which is somewhat innate - essay writing can usually be coached. If you've only got 2 possible schools on your list of secondary schools then you've got another 4 spaces to fill up - the grammars are definitely worth a punt. If he does pass you can still put the comp (school no 1) first if you would prefer to secure any sibling places for your other dc.

I teach at a school not far from Croydon where nearly all students are of black African origin, they are also nearly all severely deprived. They laugh openly in your face at the idea of supporting the England football team because they are 'not English'.

I have heard roughly 70% of the students express strong homophobic views/insults and this is something we try really hard to tackle. Some of views are so extreme and entrenched that we've had to leave it at 'hate crime is illegal in this country so keep your views to yourself'. I don't think it matters if the OP's child is gay, straight or anywhere in between or around those two points, it's a horrible thing to hear all day long.

I think it's extremely naive to deny that a combination of certain cultures and religion can lead to homophobic children in the UK(and severely sexist while we're at it). Turning a blind eye to that fact does these children a huge disservice for later in life.

And it is ridiculously offensive and bigoted to stereotype a whole generation of black children, including my own, as homophobic.

Name your school please blue so we can all avoid it. I wouldn't my black child to go anywhere near it.

And my half Scottish husband doesn't support the England football team either...

And if your students are spouting offensive, illegal drivel "all day long" it sounds as if your leadership and management of sanctions is woefully ineffective.

mini I have a ten year old growing up and educated in south London so am more than aware of the challenges facing them, you patronising fool.

Your 'woe is me' droning on is tiresome.

If your son is the academic/sporting/musical genius that you claim, he will walk a place at a 'naice ' school full of naice white middle class pupils who will embrace his sexuality.

Oh but silly me, the Sutton grammars, Whitgift, Trinity - even Dulwich College - have quite a few of those black children who are terribly homophobic, don't they? Not quite white enough eh?!

What are you to do? I suggest a move out of the ghetto that is Croydon. Devon perhaps? Not too many of us black folk there and no homophobia! It's a win win.

Devon may not be multi-cultural but in places it is pretty homophobic. Not really relevant to the thread though, sorry!

"If your son is the academic/sporting/musical genius that you claim"

What a mean-spirited, snide comment. I have made no claims of any sort of genius - I said he was musical (and said he should be a grade 4 by the time he is applying for schools), that he was 'good at sports' but not really that bothered, and 'top of his class in maths', which he is. I also pointed at that as a child at an inner city primary, and the oldest in his year, it's probably easier for him to shine, and that he wouldn't look that special if you put him in a school alongside more privileged children.

The fact that you're being such a cow about my comments shows I've obviously rattled you. Well - sorry, but I stand by what I said about high levels of homophobia in expat African and W.I communities in London. That doesn't mean I think all or even most black people are homophobic, and I've said nothing to suggest I think this.

Anyway, other than the spiteful and slightly hysterical comments from Raisin and Agapanthers, which I think were a bit inevitable this thread has actually been useful - I realise I've not quite got my head around how the selections system works, and need to have another look at it.

"And it is ridiculously offensive and bigoted to stereotype a whole generation of black children, including my own, as homophobic."

Can I repeat what I actually said?

"when he is mixing socially only with children from cultures where it's ok to express the view that homosexuals should be imprisoned/executed (and I'm afraid this is the view among a lot of first and second generation African and West Indian households)."

So as you can see, I haven't said that 'a whole generation of black children in homophobic'.

And the fact that you've accused me of saying it shows how hysterical you are about racism.

I think you should apologise.

Isn't Croydon zone 6? So not inner city at all.

I know Croydon well. As someone else has mentioned, why not name the schools you are concerned about and others may be able to reassure you.

When you say that your son identifies as White, what do you mean by that? Or is he actually White? Sorry, not trying to be antagonistic, just trying to understand.

"And if your students are spouting offensive, illegal drivel "all day long" it sounds as if your leadership and management of sanctions is woefully ineffective."

Have you spent much time around ordinary teenagers?

How old are your own children?

I've worked in schools and colleges in London. If you pulled up students for every casually sexist or homophobic comment made during lesson time, or that you'd overheard between lessons, you'd be reporting all day long and your job would become untenable.

Homophobic insults are traded between pupils in the most casual and endemic way. My dc's go to a primary (which is hugely popular, and considered well run and well managed fwiw). 'Eww, that's so gay' and 'batty boy!' are two expressions they've picked up in the playground that I've had to coach them out of using. School children using the word 'gay' to suggest something is shit is absolutely common and normal now.

I think you should apologise

Ha ha ha! Sides splitting here. You are going to be a long time waiting...

I don't apologise to people who spout bigotry and prejudice and call it fact.

You have a re-read of your earlier posts if you're unclear what bigotry and prejudice looks like.

Oh and using 'gay' as a term of offence may have sadly become routine. However in my school it is neither tolerated nor accepted and sanctions are swift and effective. Bigotry and racist stereotyping are not tolerated either incidentally, so you wouldn't get in the door.

I spend too much of my time with "ordinary teenagers". I was one, I have them and I work with them. They are a delightful bunch. Really open and accepting. Again not something you'd recognise.

Signing off this thread...I have some paint to watch dry!

minifingers I've sort of been following this thread - I have a mixed-race daughter and it's an interesting discussion.

I think there are two questions:

1. Which school would you choose if you had free choice? Your reasons for choosing one school over another have been discussed in this thread.

But that has no bearing whatsoever on the second question, which is what you actually asked:

1. What should you do about it? As you said earlier, "I've not quite got my head around how the selections system works, and need to have another look at it." Whatever the reasons for choosing one school over another, you can be reassured that putting a school as second choice has no bearing on whether or not you are allocated it (except in the situation when you get your first choice). So put your first choice first and your second choice second.