Modern languages at Secondary

[MySoreBack]

Hi all

I'm in Haringey borough and have just been to Open Day at Hornsey School for Girls where I found out that in Years 7-9 kids can only study 1 language, French or Spanish but not both. Now a search on websites of other local schools seems to suggest this is pretty much the pattern across the board. I'm very disappointed! Surely kids should be given the opportunity if they have the aptitude an interest. I found it particularly ironic when the Head was saying how wonderful it was that 62 different languages were spoken in the school (yet they can only study one!). Does anyone know if this is a national pattern and pretty much all schools would be the same?

Cant speak for Haringey but we only learnt French in years seven and eight. Could add in German and or Latin years 9-11.

school my DC are in (comprehensive, now also an academy) most children study 2 out of French, Spanish and German y7-y9 and can carry either or both on to GCSE. Some children only do 1 language, but these are given extra time for maths and english. I think last years y7 only did 1 language, and some picked up a second in y8, 2 languages is certainly the norm this year for Y7 (and was for students currently in y9)

DD's school French in y7-9.
Can take up Spanish or German for GCSE. Latin also offered as twilight.

ok - thanks, this is helpful. Sounds like it depends on the school then.

When my DD started (now year 11), they could choose two from French, German and Spanish. All had to do Latin. They had the option of giving one language up at the end of Year 8.

It then changed, and they now start with one of French, German or Spanish (child's choice) in Year 7, and adding a second in Year 8. I think they can still give one up at the end of Year 9.

It varies massively from school to school.

My DC have been able to study two languages at the same time from Y7 (DD chose to do 2, DS chose to do 1) - comp in a different part of London. Friends at other schools mainly do one language or one for half of Y7 and another for the other half. Some offer extra language options as they get older.

My ds's (comp) school has half Y7 doing French/half doing German then you can pick up Spanish and Latin (as twilight) from Y8 plus you have to continue with the language you started with.

The thing that irritates me is if you do French you can't ever pick up German and if you do German you can't ever pick up French. DS did Spanish and French in (state) primary and would have liked to go back to French but doesn't like Spanish so is hoping to do Latin alongside German.

Is it any wonder that, as a nation, we are poor at languages? Even the children that want to do it can't . My DDs did French in year 7 and then could add one of either Spanish, German or Italian in year 8. In recent years, Latin is now offered as an extra to the gifted ones, or not do a second language if their English/Maths needs extra work.

For young people who are good at languages it is a huge advantage to do 2 language A levels and quite a few universities scratch around for adequately qualified linguists so offers can be quite a lot lower than say History or English at the very best universities. Many State educated pupils are not as well prepared as independent school pupils and this is not because state pupils cannot do languages, it is because too few schools are capable of teaching more than one for GCSE making 2 language A levels virtually impossible. Why do schools fail to teach subjects that are very important to our economic well being? I agree, it is very disappointing.

I think the theory is that, if they have an aptitude for languages they can easily pick up a second language later on and so do two at GCSE. That's what my DC did and is now looking to do languages at uni - where you can still start a new language from scratch alongside your main one.

For the kids who don't take to languages, studying 2 in Y 7 and Y8 could be very tortuous and will impact on time available for other subjects

Why do schools fail to teach subjects that are very important to our economic well being?

Because the MFL GCSE sucks all joy out of languages and is really difficult, and there is therefore poor uptake at ks4- so schools cannot afford a wide range of languages/ language teachers on offer.

I spend every day of my working life being told ' I hate German' or 'why do we have to learn French anyway'. Out of 2000 students, there are 14 doing GCSE next year because they don't like the idea of learning 200+ words off by heart a few times a year. So my teaching is reduced, reduced, reduced until I can envisage being out of a job.

I am glad my language graduate DD isn't going into teaching then! It is so short sighted for pupils not to be willing to work and study a language or two ! It is interesting that you say languages are really difficult Snargalluff because a common thread running through the posts above is that pupils can just pick up a language in 2 years and then be able to do an A level in it. Unless the child is brilliant, surely getting A at A level would be challenging with this approach and compromises the result for GCSE?

My DD was never particularly bored with her studies, due to extended teaching, but always wondered why the people who were good at languages could not be accelerated as the top maths students were. They seemed to be seen as more worthy. She could have done her GCSEs in languages early but her school never thought about it but she did get nearly full marks so maybe that is what they wanted.

Ds1 did french and german in yr7 with a term each of latin, spanish and mandarin. Yr8 he did french and german with latin being available as a club( I believe spanish an mandarin were offered like this asvwell).

For GCSE he is doing latin and german. They start their choices in yr9.

Ds2 different school is doing French in yr7. Only the top students are offered German so ds2 will not have this option.

Ds1 hated French and so would not have been in top set if he was at this school, yet he loves German. I think it is a shame that ds2 will not be able to try this language at school.

My son is studying French and Japanese GCSE and he agrees with you snargaluff - the curriculum does make French in particular joyless, he is finding it tedious. But not difficult, luckily - good teachers in both subjects.
We live in LB Greenwich where the non-selectives have really improved a lot in the past five years. But for ds to go to a languages specialist secondary, dd too, they have both had to go out of borough, because none of these improved schools could offer two MFL GCSEs in anything other than French and Spanish.
It really does vary according to the school, and the authority.

DC forced to take two languages at GCSE at the expense of other subjects. Unable to take history, and RE and so opted for RE missing out on EB. Sadly hated german and was in the bottom set scraping a D. Did better is French with a B but would have comfortably achieved A or A* in history.
Also excluded history as potential a level subject because he needed to do the GCSE. DD very linguistic achieving A* and A in French and Italian and taking languages at A level. Clearly flexible policy is needed to ensure all DC are catered for, rather than narrowing choice just to ensure all pupils get the EB to make to school look good.

Depends on the school.
My dds start one language in Yr7, then those who show an aptitude (it's about 1/2 the year, not that elite) take up a 2nd lang in Yr 8.
When choosing options (in Yr9 to start in Yr10) can decide to do their 2nd MFL for a GCSE if they want, or not.
All (well, I presume there are a few exception, but majority are expected to take one MFL.
Is an ordinary state comp, but was a language specialist college when those things were 'in'

At my school you do one language or the other... we are hoping to introduce the possibility of dual linguists soon tho.

My DCs' school you do just one language in KS3 but then if you are good you can pick up another one at GCSE. DD (yr 8) is planning to do this but it will help that I teach MFL otherwise it might be a big ask even for a clever girlie

It's often about time - better to have 3 lessons on one language than 2 and 1 and do v little on the second language.

"I spend every day of my working life being told ' I hate German' or 'why do we have to learn French anyway'."

YY to that. Tho I was marking books today and one student had written "I really love German and want to use it in my career. So at least someone enjoys your lessons miss"

At dd's school all Y7s do German and French as well as a term of Latin. This continues into Y8 while in Y9 Spanish can be added. Languages are a popular GCSE subject.

All do French in year7 at ds school then in year 8 they add Latin and either German or Spanish .They have to do at least one MFL at GCSE

Yes. I get "Everyone speaks English. French/German/Spanish is a waste of time" And that's from the parents!!

Pre 2004 MFL was compulsory, so results were low due to people being forced to learn a language when it really wasn't their thing. Post 2004 it is optional - better results but far far more non doers. As fewer do GCSE, fewer do A level. As fewer do A level fewer continue on at degree level. Fewer degrees = university depts closing, and fewer teachers. In our MFL dept my Head of Dept and I teach 3 languages. I'm 47, he's 53. We both want to retire at 55, finances permitting. Our other 3 colleagues are both in theit late 30s and are trying to find other jobs outside teaching. It will be very difficult to replace us due to the lack of trainees. This situation is replicated in just about every school I know.

MFL teaching will be dead in the water in 15-20 years, if it isn't already! The UK will be a monoglot nation out of choice.

Well, this at least gives me hope that if all else fails, dd2 will probably be able to get a job as an MFL teacher! At her school (about 1500 pupils, incl 6th form) they had a gap for a couple of years so her year and one or two around them couldn't do GCSE German - she didn't want to anyway. But they have now got German teacher(s?) again, and also increased their overall number of MFL teachers. dd3 is starting there in September, and has been told that she will get to have at least introductions to French, Spanish and German. DD2 has done French and Spanish GCSE - with Spanish being a twilight subject as only 6/240 wanted to do two languages. (One MFL is compulsory for all but the lowest achievers.) She is also going to do French and Spanish A levels, and wants to do a degree which includes a language.

DD1 and ds are at grammar schools - dd1 started with a year of German, then added in French and Latin for the next two years. Did German and Latin GCSE. Lots of people doing two languages. DS started with French and Latin, then in y8 could add either German or Spanish - their choice, he chose German. Not at GCSE stage yet, but he will have to do an MFL and he will do German which he is far better at than French!

Language degrees will be getting rarer and rarer! DD got her degree classification today and told me there are hardly and firsts, contrary to popular belief that firsts are scattered like confetti. They give all the student classifications by candidate number so you can work out the percentages but not the identity of the student. MFL is a hard degree. Should her chosen career not work out, teaching it is then!

As a matter of interest, what can you do with an MFL degree?
(Interested as DD1 doing quite well with her languages).

Incredibly useful in business, where all they want to see is your ability to study - they will train you to do the job afterwards.
My one friend with a language degree is an accountant, another an MFL teacher and another a translator.

French, German and Spanish throughout year 7. One dropped into year 8. Latin also. State academy. Into year 10 allows a choice of one or more language through options.
I understand the despair of language teachers at the low take-up into GCSE but surely this will change with the EBacc as a measure of school performance. Langauge necessary for EBacc I thought.