Plenary Hearing Today & Seems We Have Irregular Goings On With Admissins/Appeal ?

[RockinHippy]

Lots of angry parents as a result & some excellent pointed questions asked - I'm glad I went along. It was interesting to say the least, but I didn't ask a question that maybe I should have, though maybe that can go in my favour now it's daunting to say the least

Basically, thanks to a local news article slating our complicated local allocation pool system & our LA because a significant number of DCs who listed only the 2 schools in their catchment area which I didn't even realise you could do, as it's not clear in the booklet & I was given bad advice didn't get an offer of a catchment area school, which I now know putting only those 2 schools, guarantees a catchment area school - that number of children have now been split & both schools forced to take half each

This means that all the extra spaces in our chosen school, that would usually become available by other families turning down offers of places & going elsewhere - have now been absorbed by these children - given priority on catchment area only & not really allocated as part of the usual much bigger allocation pool

So it turns out that whilst all us appellants are frantically building our cases & gathering evidence together - the LA have given away the spaces we were most likely to have a chance of getting & as the panel were grilled by a several of parents! including a school governor from other school - he was good

• nothing in their information booklet or website says this is something they can do, so I suspect lots of complaints will be had, as it's soul destroying to sit there & suddenly realise that all number of appeals won in the past - is just not going to happen this year - even though when pinned down the chair of appeal said it would make no difference - but boy did he not want to answer that question - so I doubt anyone else believes it either :( & from the number of over PAN places the HT agreed he would comfortably take - the number of appeals won is going to be very low this year :(

No-one asked if they acted illegally by giving priority to catchment area DCs only - we have catchment area & strong medical grounds, with a ton of good supportive evidence - though the only medical grounds allowed in at admissions stage - were statemented DCs - everything else was ignored

I'm wondering if this could be considered as disability discrimination ? - I thought of asking the question, but wasn't feeling good myself & sort of hoped if no one else was asking it, maybe we are the only ones with strong medical grounds too, so have a better chance of what looks likely to be only 4 appeals won [hopeful]

Hope that makes some sense - long day & I didn't sleep well last night - this is a huge deal for us, as DD just can't travel to the other schools :-/

Please do not feel as though you have let your daughter down. As PRH says from everything that you have said it is the LA and the appeal panel who have failed you. If the appeal panel had not admitted any to the school, whilst I might have not agreed with the decision, then I could have accepted it and probably so would the LGO.
However as soon as 9 are admitted on appeal, the question must be why were your medical issues considered as having a lower level of prejudice than these 9. The only possible reason that would be logical would be if the 9 were all excluded from getting a place due to mistakes in the original allocations, that is maladministration by the admission authority. That does no seem to be the case here.

I struggle to believe that there were 9 cases that had a higher level of prejudice than your medical issues, so the question for the LGO is to establish just exactly what went on in the appeal.

Thank you both & Really sorry, I thought I had replied to your last comments

I've had to step back from this for a while as realised there was little more I could do until I had more news from the LGO & I've had to deal with a very ill DD, which I firmly blame on the stress she is feeling over this ridiculous HS limbo we are in - all her friends are planning & chattering & visiting their new schools - she can't & though putting a brave face on it, she's upset scared & it's affecting her badly

since getting the news we've had the 2 weeks hospital stay for a stress related intestinal blockage & colitis, followed by her going back to school & then quickly coming down with viral laryngitis, which triggered an asthma flare up, which then became a nasty chest infection - she's only just made it back to school this week & still has no voice

It's been a nightmare & I feel like I was becoming so crushed under the weight of this mess that it's making me ill too & had to try & step back, so that I could be well enough to cope with nursing DD, but I need to get my head out of the sand & get on with it.

Update...

A good friend suggested I contact AMAZE, which is a charity for disabled DCs - I've handed over a duplicate copy of all the evidence I submitted to them & their legal team have now looked over it - the response was that I had a "very strong case" & that they will help me with a rehearing - so that's great,

I did feel a huge sense of weight lifted when I heard that, though that was short lived, seeing poor DD going through it so much just makes me want to scream at the unfairness of all this & I now also realise that it's the same woman who was the LAs rep at our hearing, who I've been told I have to deal with as regards getting DD accepted as a medical need case on the schools waiting list - I worry this is a conflict of interest, as surely them accepting DD as medical need now, blows a big hole in their case for not accepting her at appeal stage -

I have already had to email saying that I felt that them just using my initial enquiry email, with one attached medical letter to prove she had a diagnosis as my application for a medical need waiting list place, unfairly prejudiced our chances - I asked to be able to send my evidence etc directly to the CCP, but this was refused, though I did get a postal address - I have asked AMAZE for advice on this, but bar that I do have strong medical need for this school, I've had no actual response to the request for advice as to what to add - just chasing this up now, but the conflict of interest with the LA worries me a lot, so I need to get this more than right.

I have now had the LGO send me a copy of my appeal hearing minutes - & the LAs response, neutral letter seems we got a unanimous no, which scares me - though some key parts of my argument missing from the minutes & they clearly haven't understood DDs medical issues - the minutes for example say she has been ill for 3 years - when I said she had suffered almost 3 years of back to back significant injuries, often needing crutches, lots bullying related, others due to the poor behaviour & rule breaking of other kids - all in school injuries - DDs other symptoms are ongoing & predate this by years. They also don't seem to get that the anxiety is directly linked to the bullying she has experienced - yes it's a symptom, but as she told the phycologist herself - she's had 7 years of ongoing bullying - THAT made her ill

I've asked the LGO for a little time to respond with my comments & I'm just emailing AMAZE now for advice on how/what I need to say

Feel sick to my stomach again too

I wouldn't worry about conflict of interest. She won't make the decision as to whether or not your daughter's medical needs qualify. That is for an independent panel who should look at all the evidence. The LA should not limit the evidence put before this panel.

I also wouldn't worry too much about the unanimous no. That simply reinforces the point that the appeal panel has failed to understand your daughter's medical issues and has therefore failed to consider them properly.

You could get into a point by point rebuttal of all the panel's comments but I don't think that is necessary. Personally I would highlight the major issues you have listed here and point out that the panel has ignored the clear expert evidence you submitted and decided that they, as lay persons in medical matters, know better.

Thank you - that's a big help

I think I'm getting very paranoid of the LA, I definitely get the feel there's some ass covering going on & I'm sure this happened with our original school application & them assessing on the wrong forms - I have inside info that I can't use without causing trouble for a good friend, but there were steps that should have been followed before the application site went live & it wasn't done - the first person I spoke to admitted something had gone wrong -

they then suddenly backtracked & I received an updated email with DDs correct name etc - but my original school offer email was in a slightly wrong version of her & thanking me for my "online" application - this was the form that I couldn't get to work properly with our computer & didn't have any of the medical stuff with it & I didn't finish filling in

So I'm losing faith so much with this whole process that I'm not sure I trust them to pass on everything I send correctly - though at least with the postal address I can print it off & pack it up correctly so it's easy to follow - AMAZE lawyer reckons I made a good job of this, but I think it's probably, that's not how it arrived with the Appeal Panel

Thanks again

UPDATE!!... & QUESTION PLEASE ?

I THINK I may have just had some good news, but I don't want to count my chickens

After several lots of tooing & froing with the LGO & LA responses, to my responses, (some mentioned in other posts) & my now having issues getting any replies as regards a medical needs waiting list place for DD - I fired off another email to the LGO.

I'd looked again at our Appeal rejection letter, which gave no details as to why we had lost & I looked again at the Clerk of Appeals minutes from our hearing & saw again something that was suggested by both AMAZE & HMSA schools advice & has been bugging the hell out if me -

that was the Chair of appeals saying "we are worried about DD" this was in regards to the schools over crowding - quizzing her vulnerability to injury in a overcrowded school

So I thought I have nothing left to lose & pointed out that in the light of no real reason given for our appeal rejection, that this is bugging me & if the appeal panel HAVE understood the medical issues & evidence, then this phrase & line of question surely points to what, I have been advised looks like "Direct Disability Discrimination"

I also went through the details of our original application & my still believing there was an error & it was assed on the incomplete online forms etc etc.

This has resulted in the. LGO coming back to me, thanking for my emails & further information, saying that -

a decision has now been made, I apologise for the further delay, but I now need to give the LA time to respond, I have asked that they reply within 2 weeks

Am I right in thinking, that at this stage, that this looks really positive ??

Just reread it with DH & I misdeeds an important word - preliminary decision - so I suppose no further forward yet really

Oh well :(

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to update you all & thank you again for all your help & advice n helping me get this far, I couldn't have done it without you ??

I do have an update, good news, but not great news.

Having had DD break down in hysterics yesterday evening & sob her heart out til 2am as she's spent the morning with some friends who were chattering about high school - the one we are fighting for - these kids then left DD as a group to meet up with parents to head over to the school uniform shop - this naturally brought home this awful situation even harder & she cracked - it's heartbreaking as we are doing all we can to stay positive, even her psych thinks she is doing well with it- but nit last night, I feel so angry with our LA so much for every child matters! Seems mine doesn't matter at all! only their sodding egos

I emailed our LGO case officer at gone 2am - she had given our LA 2 weeks to respond - 3 weeks ago!!! - I recueved a lovely reply from her first thing - I really feel she is on our side, but our LA are being so unreasonable , it's untrue

She is definitely upholding our complaint - said she has been chasing our LA for a response for a couple of weeks & still hasn't had one - seems from the rest of the email that she expected them to back down, but they aren't - "she says, the LA don't intend to offer DD a place, it might agree a fresh appeal

They are not going to give in & do what's right are they! sounds like the LGO can't force it either

I had a follow call from our MPs office asking how things went with our appeal etc - I was honest & told the guy I actually feel my asking for our MPs help over the initial mistake with assessment has made things worse - I was shocked that the guy actually owned up that it wasn't the first time he had heard that, the MP has no power either, he can just ask that they reconsider what they are doing & talk to the right people - but our. LA don't listen & do as they please & that our LA have seen this problem coming for over 5 years & not acted to increase city centre school places

I really don't want to go to the press for DDs sake - after all the bullying I think it's the last thing she needs - but despite the LGO complaint being upheld & them being very much in our side - I don't think I'm going to win this battle other wise, not even sure that will help if I'm honest, but it did help the 22 families who got places ahead of the appeal

What century & country do we live in when I cannot get my DD a high school place in a local school, when her health needs means she can't travel further

I am afraid the bottom line is that the LGO can only find that the LA are in breach and that a new appeal should take place.
Most LAs have the sense to realise that when the LGO have made a decision that goes against the LA / admission appeal panel that another appeal normally has to come to a different decision from the original. Going through the formality and hassle of another appeal hearing to come to the "right" decision is just not worth the time and effort and therefore they admit to the school. That is the sensible, rational and humane thing to do, unfortunately some LAs are not like that and think they can do no wrong. I am afraid you can only wait and see what the LA decide to do.

Thanks Admissions

Our LA is certainly the latter type, that's for sure, I know they are ignoring my emails & calls - but to ignore the LGO as they currently are is just so amazingly arrogant

Can't say I'm looking forward to a second appeal hearing IF we even get that, having now had the chance to speak to others about how their hearings went for other schools, or in other areas, I realise just how awful & weighted my appeal hearing was - SIL said at the time that she thought the panel & LA rep were like Rottweilers in their questioning of me, she was annoyed about it as I was obviously struggling, seeing as I arrived on crutches - but I just figured that's how it went with these things - no one else seems to have had such a gruelling hearing, others said how easy it was & how friendly everyone was - depending on the date, I should have legal help, but I've just lost faith in any of it to be fair

Oh well, going to take DD away to visit family for a week, I think I need to get her away from the situation as far as hanging out with her friends who are naturally excited about their imminent school start - hoping a break will calm her down a bit - me too for that matter - so angry with them right now - thanks to our LA, I've just had to go back to the beginning for surgery I was due to have in the next few weeks, hospital have been great - but they just can't postpone it again

I've just had further news come in last night...

The LGOs full report, which now says the LA have agreed to a second appeal hearing - so some good news of sorts, just hoping we can still get the legal help we were promised by a local DCS disability charity & hope the LA give us enough notice to organise that. I just don't trust our LA at all

The LGO hasn't up help the complaint on the extra kids given places ahead of our appeal, though agreeing its not right, doesn't think it prejudiced our appeal, which I suppose makes sense if others won appeals - that's apparently a matter for the schools adjudicator.

LGO has upheld it on our case being prejudiced as the appeal panel weighed up the suitability of the school we turned down, against the one we appealed for, which should not have happened & that they did so inaccurately as they put the overcrowding at our chosen school over there being no overcrowding at the one we turned down, citing DDs vulnerability to injury as reason, when clearly from the evidence, DD has medical needs for a nearby school & there is no increased accident rate at the school we appealed for. Also that they stated they did not consider it a suitable school for her, but did not give us any reason, nor considered the facts of her social & medical needs accurately.

So thank you all again for your help, its made a huge difference to us, still a way to go, but I'm now confident if I get legal help, we will win our second appeal - I would be confident I could win it myself, but just don't trust our LA anymore & I'm expecting it's going to be the same rep & she clearly has a problem with me - if she didn't before, she does now - she's also my point of contact over MN waiting list place

Would you know how a second appeal works ?? ...

Is it start again from scratch & resubmit evidence ??
I want the copies of my realms of repeat copy emails to MP etc removed from the pack, they should never have been there in the first place - I also want to be certain that everything is printed off correctly for the appeal panel - my copy wasnt & was very confusing & I don't trust the panels copy was any better. DD now sees a phycologist for anxiety issues related to her condition & I could get extra supporting evidence from there.

do they gave to give a certain amount of notice??
I'm concerned that if they don't give us proper notice we won't be able to get the legal help we need, also I'm going to be away a few days & can't really cancell (Dads ill & really looking forward to seeing us) - but I'm also concerned that if this doesn't happen quickly, DD won't start school when everyone else does, which will be very tough in her as she will miss the staggered entry allowing the young ones to get used to the school before everyone else starts back - also uniform is going to be a problem - the school shop closes a week ahead of back to school - yet we can't buy uniform there without a class reference - so not sure how we are going to manage that one

tIA

Hey Rockin. I've just PM-ed you to see how things are. Have you got a date through for the 2nd Appeal?

I think it is shocking they are making you go through these hoops when (1) your DD has medical needs that would qualify her for a place in the normal admission round and (2) the LGO have upheld that the first appeal was prejudiced. They really have lost sight of your DD in this, haven't they? With the amount of 'churn' that a huge school like DS has, admitting one more pupil to Year 7 in the face of these circumstances should not be such an issue.

Good luck with it all. I think you are doing an amazing job for your DD.

Sorry - I've been away for a while and hadn't picked up your latest post.

The second appeal is essentially a repeat of the process for the first but with a different appeal panel. You can stick with your existing case or submit a completely fresh case. I suggest you contact the clerk as soon as possible if you want to change your case or submit fresh evidence. You also need to talk to the clerk about removing items you don't want as part of the pack.

They have to give you the same notice as for the first hearing. That means they must give you 10 school days notice of the hearing.

What legal help do you need? I generally recommend that parents avoid using solicitors or similar for admission appeals.

my dd got in to her school on appeal on medical needs similar issues.
focus on your new appeal and evidence for that.
that it will be easiest school to get to when dd is unwell. (so attendance will be better at this school as she will get there even when not 100 percent) -explain how she would have got to this school in current state soon after hospital admission but with the other schools she would have had another five days off due to travel...

that they will be able to support her when she both well (sports facilities, swimming) and unwell

the argument that other schools don't deal with bullying will be difficult to prove - all schools have anti-bullying policy. you cant really say that unless you have some hard evidence...

focus on how she gets to school and especially when not 100 per cent how the nearer easy to get to school will mean her attendance is higher overall.
does the school have medical room , school nurse etc to support her ?

(don't focus on the other kids that got in wrongly/rightly etc...only focus on your dd and her needs and why this school is only appropriate school)