Secondary Schools Appeals - Typical Questions To/From Panel

[JohFlow]

Hi There,

So appeals case is now submitted and it is time to mentally prepare for the hearing.

Think it would be helpful if panel experts (that is panel members, parents who have already appealed, writers on the subject etc. ) could write down a collective list of questions typically raised at appeals.

These can be raised by the panel or parents.

Can we keep it just to a list?

I have some starters....

From Panels :

1.) Why is this school the only one for your DS/DD?
2.) Why do you think your DD/DS is an exceptional case?

From Parents :

1.) How do you measure the accuracy of your mapping systems?
2.) When was the PAN last revised? Has the school increased capacity since then?

Over to you....

During our least Health & Safety inspection we were 'downgraded' to the 2nd highest score because some Year 7 DT lessons had 1 more student in than the H&S guidance suggests is the maximum.

This over capacity issue arose only because we had multiple appeals accepted last year.

Faced with the decision that either we continue with the groups as they are or have students "sit out" lessons on rotation to get the numbers back down to what is considered optimum safety.

When you say health and safety inspection, who was carrying this out?

There is no specific legal reason why the class size must be restricted to 20, it is for appropriate risk assessment to take place to decide what an appropriate number of pupils could be.

The Design and Technology Association (DATA) (www.data.org.uk) advises that at KS3, class sizes of 20 should normally be manageable, reducing to 18 at KS4 and 16 for post-16 classes. It furthermore suggests that determination of class size will “require the exercising of professional judgement by the head teacher and the subject leader”.

Another authoritative source of guidance is British Standard 4163:2007 on safety in design and technology in schools. BS 4163:2007 states that ‘in England and Wales the recommended maximum number of students in any one work area is 20 students with one competent, qualified teacher.’ (para.3.1). The employer may choose to control the risk by another means but it must control the risk. For example, the employer may decide to employ two competent and qualified teachers for one group in an area if the number exceeds 20.

Moreover, BS 4163:2007 states that a risk assessment should be carried out to determine the appropriate number of students, and that this should be carried out in accordance with “Risk Assessment in Secondary School Design and Technology Teaching Environments” a publication which is available from the Design and Technology Association at www.data.org.uk/ or by telephoning (01789) 470007.

I would also question whether your DT rooms have 100% usage. If they have then you are in a very small minority of schools. Usage should be governed by the time available for it to be used not timetable or manpower restrictions dictating how many classes.

Has anyone questioned the Sibling Rule before?

I understand that LEA's can set their own criteria and that the sibling rule is a great help to many families with busy lives/practical considerations.

My son is an only child and I wonder if the sibling rule actually goes against him. Has anyone tried to point out its affect on single children at hearings? Could it be seen as discriminatory?

The admission code is such that when they talk about what are suitable admission criteria, siblings is singled out as being an appropriate criteria. Whilst I fully accept what you are saying the reality is that for you to prove it is discriminatory you would have to get the law changed.

I suspect it is very unlikely that you will get any where at appeals as the clerk will advise the panel that they cannot change the law around siblings having priority. If you wish to take it forward you would have to take it to judicial review

If you think it discriminates against only children then it also discriminates against the eldest where there are siblings - so EVERY family is discriminated against at least once. Ergo it's not discriminatory!

I have never heard that argument Johflow and think its a non starter. We do have a school with sibling priority very low down the list and frankly siblings do not get places under that criteria, generating quite a few appeals. Parents quite understandably can't understand why DC1 got in but not DC2.

It is a horrible situation to be in if say 80% of places have gone to siblings but you would have a better chance arguing a case for admission for other reasons.

Do you want to share details of your own circumstances?

Not sure who did our H&S inspection - I'll find out - but I was given a memo with the key findings by the Headteacher.

As you say it is guidance as opposed to legality. If it was legality then we'd not be able to break it.

For what it is worth our DT lessons are already in groups of 21 and sometimes 22 at KS3. KS4 varies due to option choices but is usually above the figures you mention at KS4.

Our DT rooms are not used 100% but the timetable guru tells me it's as maxed out as he can reasonably make it.

As for the comment about manpower it's unrealistic to put on an extra teaching group because 1 person got in on appeal.

Yes I can share - HP. Suggested questions/comments from this welcomed. (Takes deep breath - not sure how brave I feel..). Worded more diplomatically on appeal letter.

Summary of our appeal..

1.) Medical Needs - DS has 10 year history of Anaphylaxis to dairy (life threatening) requiring Epipen, medically-regulated diet, care planning and post- reaction hospitalisation. Offered school is further away from the local hospital, won't offer school meals/snacks, have less knowledge of the condition, imply his condition would be a 'burden' in their large population. Offered school will cater, consult on his menus, care plan thoroughly, are sensitive to social and psychological needs of children with Anaphylaxis (anti-dicrimination), it is closer to the hospital etc. G.P. verification of condition, medical system notes and recommendation for dairy-free catering.
2.)Social Needs - 5 year history of bullying. Two ringleaders going to the Offered school and also live on our street - so no emotional rest. Will share buses/routes home, school has history of bullying incidents investigated by OFSTED, self-reporting system also for students mentions 64 incidents in 16 months. Little preventative work in place, students from school moved to others mid-term because of bullying.
Appeal school has plenty of prevention work aimed at bully and victim - friendship skills sessions, self esteem boosting, counselling etc. School ethos and discipline strongly guided towards prevention. Most of his closest friends going to appeal school. G.P, school and counselling service verification of DS's bullying-related difficulties.
3.)Sons favoured subjects (talent mentioned on school reports) better catered for at Appeal school - facilities, grades, after school clubs, resources, professional coaches, GCSE routes.
4.) Appeal school smaller that Offered school by nearly 500 children; with more intimate environment - better for shy children, reasons given why we think DS would benefit from a smaller school - covering social, medical, academic, emotional needs
5.) Questioning capacity of Appeal school - No children taken on Fair Access Protocol, low SEND intake, 8% surplus in school places last year, 32 excess places in 2010 not taken, fluctuations in whole school cohort proven not to affect results, rolling programme of building work (including new builds since last time PAN was set), money set aside to renovate whole of main school building, favourable teacher:pupils ratios....

What do you think they will ask? Over to you....

Sounds like a good case, particularly your first two points.

I long ago gave up trying to second guess what questions appeal panels will ask. Don't forget that the school's/LA's representative will also ask you questions. They often ask more questions than the appeal panel in my experience.

No children taken on Fair Access Protocol, low SEND intake

Joh, can I jump in and ask what relevance these bits you mention have to the school's capacity? (I'm trying to find out some similar things for my appeal). Thanks!

For questioning the official capacity of the appeal school the only thing that is really relevant is new builds since PAN was set. If that created additional classrooms it is possible to argue that the capacity does not reflect the current buildings and should be increased.

The other thing you can do is question whether the school can handle more than PAN. No children taken on FAP isn't really relevant - it is actually better for you if they regularly take children on FAP as that shows they can handle a year that is over PAN. Low SEND intake is marginally relevant - a school with a high SEND intake can argue this puts additional pressure on teachers. Being below capacity is relevant. Going over PAN in previous years is relevant. Low pupil:teacher ratios is relevant if they are genuinely lower than average for secondary schools. Money set aside to renovate the main building isn't relevant.

it is actually better for you if they regularly take children on FAP as that shows they can handle a year that is over PAN.

Apparently panels aren't allowed to take into account any children on FAP though, as they don't count as over PAN?

I think you are confusing infant class size appeals with ordinary appeals. In an infant class size appeal children admitted via the FAP are generally irrelevant. In an ordinary appeal the fact that the school has gone over PAN and the sky hasn't fallen in suggests they can cope with additional pupils without problems. Basically the school will argue that they can't cope with more than, say, 150 in the year for health and safety reasons. If they have previously coped with 152 in the year that undermines their argument. The fact that the additional 2 were admitted via the FAP rather than via successful appeals or whatever doesn't alter the fact that there were 152 pupils in the year and the school coped.

Ok bearing in mind I live in a large city with a lot of schools and hospitals I would probably ask questions along the following lines.

I am playing devils advocate and definitely not trying to offend you. I think your case is quite good but it is one of those that can go either way. You need to provide as much evidence as possible that names the particular school. You should avoid criticising the offered school and making a direct case against it, but obviously for some of your arguments you seem to need to make a comparison.

1. Medical. Most schools should be able to deal with children with anaphylaxis. At 11 can't he manage his own food intake (packed lunches)? Why does being near the hospital matter (surely only seen for checkups not weekly) and any hospital can d/w emergencies.

1. There is bullying at all schools and all schools (should) have an anti bullying policy. What evidence can you provide that he needs to be away from the two particular boys? What does the preferred school do that has relevance for your sons bullying situation which other schools don't?

1. All schools have facilities for x, y, z. Why does dc need to go to that school. What evidence can you provide that preferred school would meet his needs in a way that other schools can't. (Perhaps link to general self esteem).

4.What evidence can you provide (from professionals) that dc would benefit from a smaller school.

1. Capacity etc. I wouldn't mention FAP - a bit off topic.

Rest is good, normally d/w at stage 1.

Good luck!

Thank you for your comments. I think I need to clarify some thinking on FAP - although it literally forms one line in the appeal.

Prh - thanks for your advice on the relative importance of points.

HP - I actually prefer it if people act as devil's advocate. It helps me to do extra research on points that may weaken my case. Over 90% of my case highlights the positives of the preferred school. The other small percentage is by way of comparison and its done carefully/objectively. Taking your points
1.) Yes, schools should be able to deal with Anaphylaxis; but in practice there is a broad spectrum of knowledge and skills needed to do this. Anaphylaxis practice is not just a case of Epipen and then ambulance to hospital; it's based on a variety of daily preventative practices. Some schools are better able to carry out these than others. There are also differences in attitude to the condition - some of them lead to children being singled out/segregated (e.g. kids with allergies can only eat packed lunches, sit on separate tables, cannot partake in lesson enrichment involving food, comments pointing out difference, seeing need as 'burden' etc). There is only one hospital in our area and as Anaphylaxis can be fatal, and is sometimes unpredicable - the closer we are to the hospital the better.
2.) Likewise - yes, every school has bullying to some extent and an anti- bullying policy, but commitment to preventative work varies. (see more detail above). The two schools could not be further apart in terms of commitment. The preferred school offers a number of solid interventions before bullying takes place. The school ethos is also more intimate and bullying is less likely to be overlooked. I have provided evidence of why DS would be better away from bullies and this is backed by counselling service.
3.) Not all schools have similar facilities in this area. So this argument is slightly easier to prove outright. Also male take-up on the facilities is important (DS loves dance/art/theatre). How the school encourages boys to take these up/numbers already on courses is important. Numbers of resources, professional coaches, work spaces are more pronounced at one school that the other.
4.) Smaller school argument comes from research on the internet, contextualised in preferred school and then linked to benefits to DS's character and needs. Have no professional backing for this one yet - do I really need it?
5.) Point made - will consider

thanks

Hi there,
I had my appeal hearing yesterday. I was very prepared, did tons of research. Appealed on medical grounds to a faith secondary school. I felt it was a very strong case and in addition I tried to weaken the school's statement that admitting additional children would cause prejudice.
However, the hearing didn't go as I expected. I expected the panel to ask many questions. I planned to read up my presentation, but they said they'd read it and they didn't need to hear it. No questions were asked at all. It all felt rushed and seemed like they were trying to brush me off and they'd already decided it was a no and didn't want to waste time on it.
Surely if they felt it was a strong case they would've asked some questions?
I am really upset about this.
Any advice from anyone?