Secondary Schools Appeals - Typical Questions To/From Panel

[JohFlow]

Hi There,

So appeals case is now submitted and it is time to mentally prepare for the hearing.

Think it would be helpful if panel experts (that is panel members, parents who have already appealed, writers on the subject etc. ) could write down a collective list of questions typically raised at appeals.

These can be raised by the panel or parents.

Can we keep it just to a list?

I have some starters....

From Panels :

1.) Why is this school the only one for your DS/DD?
2.) Why do you think your DD/DS is an exceptional case?

From Parents :

1.) How do you measure the accuracy of your mapping systems?
2.) When was the PAN last revised? Has the school increased capacity since then?

Over to you....

Sham80, I have given you advice as have others on other threads and this one. The panel know you are stressed and want you to be able to give your case. t doesn't really matter how you present it as long as you get the argument across. The best advice I can give you is to provide evidence, without it, you make the panel's job impossible.

Sham - I agree. At the risk of sounding patronising (sorry) you need to stop telling yourself how stressful the appeal will be and start telling yourself that you can do it. Listen to ToFollowJulie for practical tips.

sorry for posting and wanting support

sorry a spoke gosh

I understand the stresses of this Sham - as I am sure the panellist/experts would. It can feel very personal when you are campaigning for your child - it's right that you are that passionate. The procedures for filling schools are there to be fair to all - this does not mean that they are impersonal. Nobody on any side of the arguments at appeal has a stress-free time. I would love it if my panellists could show me the empathy to put our case across confidently. I agree with Panel that the parents that are most likely to succeed are the ones that can balance an objective argument whilst also advocating as lovers of their children. It's not easy, but that doesn't mean you can't win.

Thank you for your questions so far - really helpful. Keep them coming...

I volunteered for the panel after experiencing the stress of not getting a good school for either child though I didn't appeal. I give up some of my annual leave for my job to sit on the panel (we are unpaid volunteers). I get the papers about a week before and go through them eagerly looking for appeals that have a reasonable case. If none are allowed it is a real downer and infant appeals are horrible for that reason. I have come home and cried with frustration. Panellists in my area are considering what to do about them as the present situation is ridiculous.

Personally though we are meant to be objective I give the admissions authority a bloody hard time - I take no prisoners and have a sharp tongue- and do my best to get the parent to put their argument across.

If you want to win you have to have a valid argument. You don't have to be articulate, we can read out a written statement if you want, but you have to have grounds for appeal and for many situations like Sham's provide documentary evidence.

Don't worry about crying or being upset, just try to breathe and get the words out. Panellists like cases they can allow. Sadly the majority are pretty hopeless with weak grounds. I sit in an area with a shortage of places where people appeal without grounds out of desperation .

I can see how stressful it is for parents. But be assured that the majority of panellists are on your side even if they font show it , but you have to help them by providing evidence on which they can base their decision.

sham80 - I don't think anyone is having a go at you. We are all trying to help.

I agree with all of that, HPparent.

Sham - I have been following your other thread and I appreciate the difficult situation you are in. I understand that you are looking for support, but for all the reasons HPparent mentions, I think one way in which we can support you is by encouraging you to think positively about the appeal and how you can present the case for your son. You don't need to be the world's most articulate person - the panel will make allowances for that - but you need to back up your arguments with evidence.

THANKS much appreciated am noting every bit of advice you all giving me on the hand a think a should be ok on day 3 of my best mates who would have gone with me are on holiday no1 to take with me and just the word burglary etc sets me of because been dealing with other things related to it and dh is to quiet reserved lol am worried wont get anything across

Can I hijack this thread and ask about the parents putting their case forward. We put everything in our notice of appeal - will the panel still ask us to present our reasons or would they go straight to questions?

Usually they will ask you to say what ever you want to say. I would always say go through the reasons again why you think this is the right school for your child because it is amazing how many times something that the parent says triggers off another line of questioning which might be to your advantage. Like the one who mentioned there was a half-brother living at the same address, who just happened to be a pupil at the school, which the school and LA had not picked up on and the parent did not believe was relevant because somebody at the admission office had said on an email did not matter when it came to giving priority.

I usually say that we have read the appeal form and know something about their circumstances. I live in an authority where many parents are not as clued up about the process as many people on this forum, and are not really accustomed to expressing themselves on paper.We very often find that some really important points come out during the appeal hearing itself during questioning by the panel.

Admission. I think you are right to advise parents to say why it is the best school for their child. This is what I meant by an educational reason. How a child gets to the school is not educational and could, and I stress could, be less significant to a panel. In my area there are differences between schools and parents can argue successfully that a child would be better suited to school A than school B. I agree this is hard to do if there are no discernible differences, although I would have thought most parents can tell the differences between schools and know which one is best for their child. The different specialisms of schools is a good starting point and panel members would be aware of those. Bringing out the child's aptitudes, style of learning, facilities and clubs the child would benefit from all help. A good musician might benefit from a school orchestra, a keen footballer wants a good sports school, a bi-lingual family might appreciate a language college, some children might desperately need computer science which is not available elsewhere and so on. All schools cannot possibly be the same! I also found panels did not like other schools to be rubbished. It is best to keep to why you want School A and not why you cannot stand the thought of School B.

Will the panel make their decision based on what we say at the appeal only, or will they also take into account what we wrote in our original letter? I'm concerned that I will be nervous and get flappy and forget to say something important.

Everything I need to say was in the original letter so if they take that into account as well then that's fine but if not I'm really worried!

Of course they take your appeal statement (and the LEA's) and all supporting documents into account. What would've the point of them otherwise?

What would be

Sham80 - I'm not meaning to get at you - but your posts here are almost incoherent. I would imagine that a panel is going to have more opportunity to grant your appeal if they can understand it. If your posts here are representative of the way you normally communicate then maybe you need to take someone with you to put the case across.

Spelling and grammar aren't going to matter to the appeal panel. They need to get the picture of why Sham's son needs a place at that particular school and they need to see evidence from (say) CAMHS to back that up. We have been encouraging Sham to take a calm and positive approach to the appeal. If she is nervous on the day, the panel will make plenty of allowance for that but, yes, she could take a friend for moral support if she wishes.

PanelChair, I'm just trying to get a sense of how important what I say at the hearing is, when asked to present our reasons. If I mess it all up and forget to mention things that are in the letter then that won't go against me, because it's in the letter anyway?

Yes, exactly. The panel consider the total package of evidence that's been put before them, by all parties.

What I do as a panellist is read through the papers when I get them and note down the important points, potential questions and queries. We also as a panel, have a brief discussion before the appeals about any unusual cases in particular and what questions we want to ask and divide them up to make sure they are; of course there are unforeseen issues that arise as well.

Normally, unless the papers are scant, the parents' oral case is not as important.

As a human being, I probably have a judgement about the case before the appellant steps in the room, however there have been cases which looked weak on paper which have been argued very persuasively. There are also cases which seem to have a reasonable argument but the parent provides no evidence and getting information is like pulling teeth.

I find that the appellants cases are not well prepared on the whole. We often get realms of papers saying the child is lovely and a hard worker and wants to go to the school but not saying WHY it is the best one for them. Then we get the negative ones; they have to go to Y Academy and can't go to X High School because there is bullying or the children nick stuff from the convenience store on the way to school. Of course the following week, the appellants for X High School say they can't got to Y Academy for the exact same reasons.

The other main category is people who appeal because they don't understand the admissions criteria and want to know why a child two doors down got in but not their child.

Quite a few appellants do not turn up at all, ranges from 20-50% and we can only then decide the case based on what we actually have in front of us.

I sit in London so we have quite a lot of appellants with English as an additional language. Sometimes they bring a relative or friend to translate and that's fine. Most people do bring another relative, friend or work colleague but not all.

It doesn't matter how you dress, no one will judge you. I try to rearrange the furniture so we are not shouting from one end of the massive table to the other and seat the appellants closer to the panel with the admissions authority further away, so we are not seen to be on their side. Most rooms tend to be quite formal though. Water and tissues (sadly) are also provided.

Thanks, both of you. I think we have a pretty good case on paper, I am just scared of presenting it badly. Would it be ok if I wrote a summary to read out, if asked to present our reasons? Would it go against me by appearing like 'here is a rehearsed speech'...

I'm sure that would be fine, but do make sure it is a summary and not a word for word repetition of what's in the statement.

INCOHERENT? lol a thought it was mumsnet a dont need to worry about grammer or make sense etc @slowcomputer oviously not going to be like this on day of appeal and have had plenty good advice and support on here .so hopefully thinks will go well my policy honest ,calm,get point across backed with paperwork and lots of sleep, lol