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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

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Original poster

Latin/Russian/German???

98 replies

pickledsiblings · 08/03/2014 15:42

DD is in Y8 and has to choose between the following for next year:

1 Latin only
2 Classical Civilisation only
3 German only
4 Russian only
5 Latin and German
6 Latin and Russian

She is currently doing French and Latin and is enjoying them - she'll continue with French regardless. She has some aptitude for languages it is fair to say.

She has no idea of a future career so doesn't know what A levels she'll take. She already has 9/10 subjects (including French) firmed up in her mind for GCSE.

Can anyone offer some wisdom on which choice might be the most sensible in the current academic climate? Thank you.

OP posts:

MillyMollyMama · 09/03/2014 01:20

German is a Latin language and so is French. If she wants to do Russian at University it can be done ab initio but French and German, usually, cannot. Therefore she needs to do them to A level in school if she is a linguist. Do the Latin too as she likes it. 10 or 11 GCSEs makes no difference really. Loads of people do 10 or 11 now. Linguists do more GCSEs as they do more languages. Her mix of subjects looks fine to me and I hope she continues with languages. However, did I read correctly that it was Maths X 2. Linguists don't need 2 maths GCSEs. Most people don't. That is the one to drop.

Rabbitcar · 09/03/2014 07:05

Option 5. Keeps her options open, as she can pick up Russian in the future. There is still a lot of call for German speakers.

EdithWeston · 09/03/2014 07:21

Could I quibble pedantically with the statement 'German is a Latin Language and so is French'

Diagram of indoeuropean language families here. French is indeed Italic, but Germanic is a separate branch containing modern German, as are the Slavic languages containing Russian (you need to click into the part two 'satem' section of the link to see how Russian etc fits in).

happygardening · 09/03/2014 07:27

My DS has done Latin since yr 4 3-4 lessons week to do well you have to understand/learn the grammar very thoroughly. At senior he choose German because we were advised that the grammar is similar although easier and if you good at Latin, German will be easy. He would however back up the comment made up thread, German is easy in the beginning but is now becoming harder where as French harder in the beginning but is now becoming easier.
One final point his independent school offers Russian to Pre U and Mandarin to IGCSE native speakers of either languages are not allowed to take them.

Original poster

pickledsiblings · 09/03/2014 11:55

I'm beginning to feel that the Russian can wait (if languages turn out to be her thing) whereas the German is best started sooner rather than later.

The pragmatist in her has decided that German would be best and she is now quibbling over whether or not to keep Latin.

It is so helpful being able to chat over this here so thank you all for your contributions once again.

OP posts:

pigsinmud · 09/03/2014 12:07

I would just do German.

grovel · 09/03/2014 12:26

Just Latin.

Everhopeful · 09/03/2014 14:56

I'm very glad your DD is pragmatic - I think that really is the only way round this one! If she enjoys Latin though, it seems a shame to drop it, but what really counts is what she feels about it. Realistically, GCSEs only really have one function for academic types that will study further anyway and that's to get them the opportunity to do it by getting them into the 6th. The number and subjects don't really matter half as much as A levels do.

Oblomov · 09/03/2014 15:05

I don't know what to advise.
Did Russian at Uni, never having studied it before.

Russian might be seen as a bit exotic. But German might be more practical to use in business say.

So hard. Has she had any decent career advice as to what dirt if career she wants.
If she wants to use her languages, translating, that's one thing.
Alternatively she could be a top fund manger or CEO, talking 5 languages!!!!!!

Oblomov · 09/03/2014 15:07

Ds1 does Latin in primary.
They do Latin, German and Russian at our local secondary.

Oblomov · 09/03/2014 15:11

Really shocked to read ladymuck saying if she saw German she thinks good linguist, saw Russian she would think native speaker.

Oblomov · 09/03/2014 15:21

At first I wasn't sure what to advice. But now.
I agree with Ladybird
in order:
German - most wanted by employers
Russian - make her stand out from the crowd ( its not that hard to learn and is very phonetic)
Latin - is dead, as languages go. But Latin is also seen as cool. And unusual.

LauraBridges · 09/03/2014 15:23

In my school you did German if you were clever and if you weren't you did needlework. I did A level. I don't often have to use it but can still read and understand it. The only other girl who did the A level with me (class of two) ended up moving with her husband to Germany and presumably speaks it every day - so certainly came in handy for her. I did French to O level too. I think was long as you have one foreign language that is enough for many career and I would always prioritise 9 really good GCSEs high grades in good subjects to more than that with worse grades in not such good subjects. Languages will always be a good GCSE to have.

MillyMollyMama · 09/03/2014 15:47

By the way, few employers actually say they want languages. Most prestigious employers look for good degrees from top universities. For example the Bar Careers service now only visit 10 universities. Lots of employers want science, maths, engineering or economics. Languages come in handy, but that is all. Translating is a lonely career and does not suit gregarious people. It can be very isolating (I have a relative who translates) and a strong personality would be missing the stimulation of working in a team or showing leadership skills. Languages can be used as a platform to all sorts of careers, including law, but are rarely sought after in their own right. That does not mean to say they should not be studied and valued but when do you see an employer seeking only language skills and no others? In a global market, employers can employ Germans, Russians, Chinese, Brazilians who speak their own language as well as English. This is why graduate salaries for linguists are not that high in comparison to engineers and doctors, for example.

Bonsoir · 09/03/2014 16:28

"Would any of you lot that have studied languages beyond school mind saying what jobs you do?"

I was an analyst and then a management consultant when I worked in the corporate world and languages were indispensable. But I had other qualification as well.

LauraBridges · 09/03/2014 16:32

MMM is right.
I do loads of EU law.
The only area I see where it matters is at the European Commission where I think you need 3 languages. They are finding it very very hard to be fair and recruit enough English people as we don't have the 3 languages people in the rest of the EU often have. It's a big issue. of course one solution now there are 28 member states is just force everyone only to use English for the work in the Commission but that would not go down very well.

EBearhug · 09/03/2014 16:52

few employers actually say they want languages.

That depends partly on the company. I work for a multinational, and some roles definitely need languages. For everyone else, including everyone in overseas offices, they have to have English. So most of the company is bilingual (if not tri- or more lingual), and it's only British, Americans and Australians who are monoglot English.

But learning language isn't just about being able to speak another language - I think it opens up different ways of thinking, realising that not everyone looks at the world in the same way.

Pregnantberry · 09/03/2014 17:06

My DP used to be a languages teacher (German), and often lamented that not many places offered Latin any more (although it seems to be coming back a bit judging by this thread)!

His reasoning was that when he took Latin, it gave him a really good grounding in grammar which he felt he didn't get in French and German but it made learning future languages much easier.

I also think that there is a certain prestige in having Latin on your academic record if you are applying to more prestigious universities than 'modern' languages - which is unfair because far more independent schools offer it than state, but there you are.

grovel · 09/03/2014 18:19

People have a curiously high regard for Latin. Those who studied it themselves feel part of a club with new students. Those who didn't study it respect those who did as being somehow "academic" for having studied a dead (but useful linguistically) language.

tryingreallytrying · 09/03/2014 18:48

Go for 5. Definitely.

Bonsoir · 10/03/2014 09:14

grovel - I did loads of Latin and have zero respect for it as an academic discipline. Perhaps because I also studied French, German, Italian and Spanish to a high level and know that a living language beats a dead language any day.

PigletJohn · 10/03/2014 09:37

German and French are both modern languages of practical use. You can read a newspaper, watch a film, talk to a person. IMO this is a huge advantage over Latin. Even if you dig up someone who has been dead for two thousand years they will not be able to speak to you.

Latin has extra snob value and is valued by traditionalists, especially those who have never had to learn it. Some of the advantages claimed for learning a mechanically complex dead language is that it teaches elements of grammar (so does any language) and that it exercises mechanical thinking.

Russian is especially suitable for boys who find the pronunciation and intonation less embarrassing than speaking French or Italian. However it is not so easy to pick up a newspaper and read it if you were not immersed in the Cyrillic alphabet from your mothers knee.

I would go for French and German.

I have learned and spoken all of these. I especially loathe latin.

Tuttora · 10/03/2014 11:30

Anyone who thinks their child will be able to read a newspaper, watch a film or hold a meaningful conversation by studying a modern language GCSE is completely deluded. It is also quite possible to get a very high grade with little understanding of grammar (at least for the mainstream languages, don't know about Russian). Latin GCSE does at least force you tackle grammar and get used to rote learning, which is an important and neglected skill for linguists.

SecretSquirrel13 · 10/03/2014 11:37

Yes I would agree with that Tuttora- the jump from gcse to a level in modern languages is massive and grammar comes in at that level. The jump to degree level is much smaller. Although am only viewing this from my own experiences and that was 25 years ago!

PigletJohn · 10/03/2014 11:44

Anyone who thinks their child will be able to read a newspaper, watch a film or hold a meaningful conversation by studying a modern language GCSE is completely deluded

I could, but I had reinforced my learning with real-life conversations with Germans. This is the great advantage of a language that is not spoken mostly by people who are dead.

I see no point in learning a language where there is no prospect of being able to use it.

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