Latin/Russian/German???

[pickledsiblings]

DD is in Y8 and has to choose between the following for next year:

1 Latin only
2 Classical Civilisation only
3 German only
4 Russian only
5 Latin and German
6 Latin and Russian

She is currently doing French and Latin and is enjoying them - she'll continue with French regardless. She has some aptitude for languages it is fair to say.

She has no idea of a future career so doesn't know what A levels she'll take. She already has 9/10 subjects (including French) firmed up in her mind for GCSE.

Can anyone offer some wisdom on which choice might be the most sensible in the current academic climate? Thank you.

[SecretSquirrel13]

But language to gcse does equip you with the ability to 'get by'. It's not all wasted effort.

[PigletJohn]

anyway, what I said was "German and French are both modern languages of practical use. You can read a newspaper, watch a film, talk to a person. IMO this is a huge advantage over Latin. Even if you dig up someone who has been dead for two thousand years they will not be able to speak to you."

Which is about the purpose of learning a language, and gaining some benefit from it. I agree that the GCSE standard is very low.

[AphraBane]

"Would any of you lot that have studied languages beyond school mind saying what jobs you do?"

I have somewhat the opposite perspective - I now work (as a translator) with a language I didn't even take to GCSE level, let along A level or degree. I just lived in Germany for a long time until I'd picked it up, then took a post-graduate translation qualification. Bearing that in mind, the choice of languages for GCSE doesn't seem terribly important to me. If you're determined, you can always pick it up later on by just going there for a while. And as 'Tuttora* writes, GCSE is not a terribly challenging level of language skill.

German is remarkably good as a combination with English and French. French gives you a gateway to other Romance languages such as Italian and Spanish. German opens the way to Dutch and some Scandinavian languages. We find as German speakers that that we can often understand large chunks of written Dutch (spoken Dutch remains double-Dutch though). German is also really good for getting younger learners used to a case-based system, without being as extreme as Russian or Latin.

DD1 is planning on working for some sort of international NGO (perhaps UN or similar). Languages are crucial for that kind of job - not just the language knowledge in itself, but being prepared to learn/capable of learning a local language on a particular posting as a sign of being prepared to integrate. DD is already bilingual English/German, reasonably fluent in French after a three-month exchange, leaning Croatian off her own bat from a friend, will learn Dutch in a degree programme taught in Holland, and the degree programme has a compulsory language-learning component for something like Arabic, Hindi or Mandarin. And despite this, her language skills would only be supplemental to her main role in the NGO (rather than an end in themself). To be honest, most British teenagers don't get that level of language exposure - and show no interest in it either.

[PigletJohn]

I don't need foreign languages for work. However I used to work for a large US company and was sent to to France and Germany. Although (being American) the official office language was English, it would be silly and difficult to work in a place where you can't even understand street signs and bus destinations, never mind read menus and ask for directions, or watch the TV news. Comedy shows and drama are much more difficult because they depend on cultural context.

I also go on holidays to countries that are not English-speaking.

It is easier to learn, and to understand, enough to get by in other languages, once your brain has grasped the concept.

I have never worked, or lived, or holidayed, in any place where Latin was useful, except for reading inscriptions.

I don't agree that learning by rote is essential or useful. I learned to speak English fluently and grammatically without it, and I bet you did too.

[Dinosaursareextinct]

Marmitelover - you are very very lucky with your school.
I'd go for Russian and Latin, unless DC is keen to do German for some reason.
Some unis for some subjects do like you to have done Latin. I was asked about it at university interview, although I had not applied to study Latin.

[Myrtille]

I can't bring myself to read in details 4 pages of postings on this so I may be repeating what others have said but...
My daughter did Russsian GCSE and A level and Latin GCSE. She says the Latin has been very useful with learning anatomy at uni and was well worth doing. She found it very easy to get a A. Russian was well taught at the school. There were 6 six people studying it to A lev and they all got A/A. None of them were Russian nationals. Her medicine interviewers liked it and she's met more people in the NHS from eastern europe (who usually know Russian) than Germany.

[PigletJohn]

IMO, the "benefits" of knowing some latin words that have been shoehorned into technical terms, are simply vocabulary, which is not the same as learning to speak a language and use its grammar.

[Dinosaursareextinct]

I do think that learning a living language is way better than learning Latin, but you have the choice that you have.

[oneearedrabbit]

I realise I am only echoing what others have said but my advice for a bright pupil , as your DD appears to be, would be to keep up the Latin and add German and take 11 GCSEs
She already has been learning Latin - shame to drop it as she is probably good at it and could get a good exam result.
I think she would find German genuinely interesting and not that hard at GCSE
I agree taking any of these languages on to AS or A level is a massive leap. My DDs got A* languages at GCSE and are both, in my opinion, utterly useless at the languages (French for one, Spanish for the other.) It was learned almost totally by rote for the exam. But A level goes to a whole new level and for a good linguist is a fascinating subject to take.
Russian can be started easily ab initio at university by a linguistically able student.
If she enjoys Latin, do encourage her to keep it on. The GCSE is fairly challenging as proper literature is studied (NOT the case in French or Spanish, can't speak for German or Russian); and it is fun, interesting, and, though this is not why she should do it, undoubtedly good on a CV.
Go Latin!

[pickledsiblings]

oneeared, she has more or less decided to do just as you suggest, we still have 'til Monday to decide.

[GertBySea]

I have studied all those languages to either A level or degree level and must say that Russian is the one that has given me the biggest "kudos". I was the only Language grad in my graduate intake at a management consulting firm and I'm sure that it was the Russian that helped most.

I must say also that Latin seemed to get quite a bit harder at GCSE level so should not be relied upon as an easy subject.

[oneearedrabbit]

oh good, glad she is coming down on the side of Latin with whatever else.
Yes Gert I agree, Latin GCSE is not a doddle at all but given the child in question already studies and likes (is good at?) it, she should have a good chance for a high GCSE grade.

[SecretSquirrel13]

I'm glad too Pickled, Have really enjoyed this thread it is years since I really thought hard about languages like this- although they helped me in my career I don't use them much anymore apart from when travelling.

[Beastofburden]

Coming late to this but another vote for including German. I did French and German degree (obv also o and a level) and then did a financial qualification. The languages combined with the other qualification have kept me happily in work ever since.

German is great as you can then understand Swedish, Dutch, Afrikaans, Danish; French means you can work out Italian, Spanish, etc etc. We didn't do Latin at my school. But English is just a great first language as there are Germanic elements and Latin elements, both types of language seem familiar. When I see a linguist who has done all Latin languages like French and Spanish I always feel they missed out a bit.

[Beastofburden]

Though I would choose Russian over Latin, but that's just me and in her case, it would clearly be much more risky than cashing in her Latin. Don't forget she's a teenager, anything could happen, she may fall in lurve

[PigletJohn]

when I was working there I met a German girl. Not much chance of meeting a dead Roman.

[Beastofburden]

piglet good to know academic factors are uppermost in your mind, eh?

[PigletJohn]

"she may fall in lurve"

and get much more practice

[Beastofburden]

I meant really though, that although she is currently clearly very commited to her studies, she might develop other interests and stop working so hard, and therefore it would be wise not to push OP's luck by adding Russian....

But if we are going down that route, obviously Russian is the way to go, as they are so much richer, nicht wahr?

[pickledsiblings]

I'm so glad that there wasn't an option to do Russian and German as that would have made my head explode.

She is keeping Latin on a trial basis for Y9 and may give it up in preference for something more worthy for GCSE.

She will still do French and German GCSEs though, unless she falls in lurve that is .

[AphraBane]

"when I was working there I met a German girl. Not much chance of meeting a dead Roman."

Actually a friend always tells the anecdote of when he was with his girlfriend in the 1970s in Hungary, at a point when very few people spoke English. They met up with some Hungarians at a bar and tried to find a common language. The Hungarians could speak Russian, the Brits couldn't. The Brits had French and German the Hungarians didn't. It then turned out all of them had had Latin at school, and they conversed the whole drunken evening in Latin. So who says it has no practical applications!

And I know someone who did her doctorate on Latin and she's part of a group of linguists that runs trips to Rome where they only speak Latin to each other all week.

[PortofinoRevisited]

Hmm. I did French, German and Russian at school. Agree that Russian is not harder after you grasp the alphabet, which you do in the first term. I dropped Latin after the first year of secondary. Interesting, I am in Belgium and Latin is part of the national curriculum at all secondaries. You have to do at least 2 years (maybe 4) and if you choose a language track, vs a science one you keep Latin all the way through. The more academic schools also do Greek.

The Russian I have all but forgotten now. German has been more useful. As there is no Russian/German option I would probably go for Latin/German.

[PortofinoRevisited]

On the other hand - opportunities for mixing with Russians were limited when I left school nearly 30 years ago. The world is different now. I can still "read" the Russian letters though.