A level further maths - why is it treated so differently?

[TheBeautifulVisit]

I'm just wondering about further maths. In further maths A level 58% achieved A or A grade versus 12.7% achieved A or A grade in ICT in 2013, source here: www.telegraph.co.uk/education/leaguetables/10247947/A-level-results-2013-national-results-by-subject-and-gender.html

Why are students discouraged from sitting further maths if it seems likely they'll go on to achieve anything but the top grades? Why are schools unhappy for students to countenance a C or a D grade in further maths but are perfectly happy for students to take ICT, even though they can reasonably expect to achieve a C or D grade?

It makes no sense to me at all. We are short of computer scientists and a further maths at C or D grade would be very useful, possibly much more useful than a similar or higher grade in ICT.

Why do we support this system? Surely we should be encouraging children to study as much maths as possible for as long as possible?

Can somebody please explain to me why further maths is treated so preciously?

TheBeautifulVisit You are right about the way they allocate the modules. I had the school check this with the exam board because DS has an offer which specifies A further maths. You have to have A maths in order to get A* FM. Sneaky.

TalkinginPeace the reason I mentioned that FM isn't always counted as an A level with regard to MEDICIBE APPLICANTS has got nothing to do with ^mumsnet snobbery* but rather to do with the fact it's TRUE!!!
I was trying to be helpful mentioning it because some students and parents don't realize.

why would medics bother with further maths anyway?

That seems an odd questionTalkingPeace. I don't know why students choose particular A'levels? Medicine applicants are typically strong in maths and science. I presume the Medical schools who don't count FM and Math as two A'levels wouldn't bother mentioning it if it wasn't an issue.

No one on this thread has actually said that 'FM is not considered a full A'level' Its a shame that you and Webwiz have stated otherwise.

I do not actually care what med schools think of it because my daughter is doing it for totally different reasons

and actually you were the first person to mention that FM did not count as a full A level on Tuesday at 21.38

It's definitely a separate A level. Mumsnet is also wont to say General Studies is worthless. But some RUssell Group universities accept it as one of three A levels on all sorts of very sensible degrees: (Law at Sheffield for example). Apparently they've run tests and high grades in GS bears a strong correlation with success on some degree programmes.

Agghhhhhhhh! I did NOT say that FM is not counted as a seperate A Level. No one has said that!! RTFT and don't make up quotes.

I said Further Maths isn't always counted as a seperate A' level if you plan to study medicine. (Cut and pasted from my original post) I said that because it is true and because I thought it might be helpful for those parents with students who are thinking of studying medicine. I don't understand why it would concern you or bother you.

Typo... Separate NOT whatever I wrote

TheBeautifulVisit. Please, please read the posts. Not a single poster has said that FM is not a proper A Level. I simply wanted to point out to parents of potential medical students that some Medical Schools won't count A level maths and A level FM as two subjects. I was not being dismissive of FM. I really was just trying to be helpful. It has nothing to do with Mumsnet stigma.

Lol, sorry my angry post was for TalkingPeace

TalkingPeace
no poster of that name on this thread

A slight digression: why isn't there, say, a Further Physics, or a Further Chemistry?

I would have thought that for students aspiring to take these subjects at university it could offer helpful grounding.

Maths is right or wrong
kids who "get it" can advance us the curriculum very, very fast
the majority of them have levelled back out by the age of 22
but for those early developers, an extended maths curriculum is almost essential

in all other subjects there are enough unknowns to keep pupils and teachers guessing within one standard deviation of the normal curriculum

Maths is useful in a wide range of subjects, the sciences and social sciences require some maths. Maths A-level is not just for students who want to study maths so needs to be relatively wide access, not just to the best mathematicians. This was the reason a lot of the old content was moved to further maths - to increase take-up. So further maths is the A-level that students who want to take maths or maths-based degrees should be studying.

Unfortunately as not all sixth forms offer further maths, unis are reluctant to make it part of their entry requirements, then you see then moaning that A-level maths isn't a good enough grounding for their degree programme

In the last admissions round, 14% of successful Oxford medics took A level further maths, compared with only 11% of applicants to medicine at Oxbridge.

www.medsci.ox.ac.uk/a100statistics

Of course FM would not have been a third A level. And need not have been offered at A* or even A grade. But they clearly like candidates offering FM.

Maths is right or wrong

No, it isn't.

LRD
it is compared with English or Art

Maybe so ... I only said it because that is one of the things that really hit me about A Level Maths, and my mum who teaches it says it is the single biggest problem students have. They think it is 'right' or 'wrong'. They struggle with the fact it isn't. Whereas with other subjects, perhaps students are more accustomed to the fact there are gradations of 'rightness'?

Though this probably says more about how crap I am at maths so do ignore me.

LRD
I'm an accountant
we never sign accounts off as "accurate"
only ever "true and fair"
BUT
Maths, particularly up to A level, is something that students can progress at almost in isolation : hence the regular reports of young teenagers hetting high Maths grades

Is that still true of a student in line for a D grade, though?

I accept I'm very likely wrong, I'm just thinking this is not a thread about young geniuses who're going to walk an A*, is it? The point is this is about those students who might get a C or a D.

Again, not certain, but I have been told that to get a D grade at AS Maths (so a few steps down from A2 Further Maths, obviously) you actually barely need more than you did to get an A at GCSE. If that's even close to true, I would think there must be quite a gulf between the people who get A at Further Maths, and those who get a D or a C. And I wonder if they perhaps aren't very much like those who get the A* grade? Often students at the lower end are effectively blamed for their own grades instead of being given the advice they need.

The thing about maths that I recall from my long-ago schooldays, is that it is easy until suddenly it becomes impossible. There doesn't seem to be anything in between. So maybe FM is an A/B-or-nothing type of subject.

@LeapingOverTheWall DD2 is on a placement this year so is enjoying a break from studying!

The famous Trinity College guide to A-level subject combinations makes it pretty clear that for some subjects if you can take FM you must. My DD is in yr10 and is thinking of electronic engineering... she's already perplexed which subjects to drop.

LaVolcan - the appropriate grounding for physics/chemistry degrees is the existing A levels. If you're going to do chemistry you want physics and maths and then either biology or FM depending which way you tend.