A level further maths - why is it treated so differently?

[TheBeautifulVisit]

I'm just wondering about further maths. In further maths A level 58% achieved A or A grade versus 12.7% achieved A or A grade in ICT in 2013, source here: www.telegraph.co.uk/education/leaguetables/10247947/A-level-results-2013-national-results-by-subject-and-gender.html

Why are students discouraged from sitting further maths if it seems likely they'll go on to achieve anything but the top grades? Why are schools unhappy for students to countenance a C or a D grade in further maths but are perfectly happy for students to take ICT, even though they can reasonably expect to achieve a C or D grade?

It makes no sense to me at all. We are short of computer scientists and a further maths at C or D grade would be very useful, possibly much more useful than a similar or higher grade in ICT.

Why do we support this system? Surely we should be encouraging children to study as much maths as possible for as long as possible?

Can somebody please explain to me why further maths is treated so preciously?

bruffin - i rest my case.

But if he gets the retake right he will be an A. He got the E because he didnt revise properly that module, he is obviously not struggling with the rest of it. As others are saying its all or nothing.

What im trying to say is the C is because he underperforming, not because thats all he is capable of.

I hope it won't hijack the conversation if I ask what are the qualities and skills that make some students succeed and some other fail?

I just looked randomly at the MEI FP2 book, hoping to find scary things I wouldn't know where to start with. It's been so long since I did any maths, but it appears to me that everything in that book derives from basic algebra and geometry. I don't understand what is the fuss.

You can argue that about everything in Maths though can't you - it all derives from one basic function - addition!

titchy, yes, you could derive everything to addition. So what are the skills that make some fail and others get A and A*?

I know I am old but I didn't realise even A levels were modular these days? How do they divide the Further Maths A level up then?

In my day (starts up the rocking chair) we took Maths A level in Lower Sixth (year 12?) (sort of as practice was how it was billed) and then FM in Upper Sixth (year 13, I guess). If you got an A in LS you left it at that and concentrated on the other subjects or if, like me, you didn't, you retook Maths A level in US to get a better grade.

Like MinesAPintofTea says, it makes sense that the Maths modules would be taught in Yr 12 and the FM ones in yr 13 as the syllabus is (presumably still) divided effectively into the easier half of Applied and Pure Maths and the harder half.

My daughter is Yr 11, has A* GCSE maths taken early, and is doing GCSE Further Maths in June (fitting it in as an extra since finishing GCSE Maths in Nov). She is really enjoying the further maths, and hoping to go on to do Maths and Further Maths (plus Physics and Economics) at AS. However, I am a little worried, having read this thread, that Further Maths is going to be very difficult. I know she is good at Maths, but I don't think she would be necessarily be described as brilliant.

She thinks she wants to do a Maths degree, but how do we know whether she is really up to doing Further Maths at A level? Of course the staff are encouraging her to do it, as they want to keep their numbers up, and (I think) get more girls doing Maths and Physics. The way that the school she will probably go to (hers doesn't have 6th form) teaches it is AS Maths & Further Maths in Yr 12, A2 in both in Yr 13 - however she does have the choice of a different school which does AS & A2 Maths in Yr 12 followed by AS & A2 Further Maths in Yr 13. Which is better?

AS & A2 Maths in Yr 12 followed by AS & A2 Further Maths in Yr 13. Which is better?
Good question. I suspect those who do AS Maths & Further Maths in Yr 12 might find the pace easier. On the other hand the A2 modules seem to be a huge step up in difficulty and you might be lulled into a false sense of security..
The reason I say this is because I know a lot of DS1s friends did fairly well in core 1 and core 2 which are the pure maths AS modules. They then bombed core 3 and core 4.

Having said that for those aiming to do a maths degree at a top uni I think that doing all the maths A level topics in Y12 may help with applications and admissions tests.

Just my feeling as a parent of a DS doing maths who lives and breathes maths and never talks about anything but maths

Ds is finding core 3 and 4 easier than core1
As i said above in OCR i am sure you can mix some of the modules between Maths and FM.
However ds school has changef from OCR to AQA this year as it is easier to get resourses.

She thinks she wants to do a Maths degree, but how do we know whether she is really up to doing Further Maths at A level?

Because she got an A* in maths taken early, is enjoying further maths GCSE and wants to do a maths degree! She sounds like an ideal candidate.

It's bizarre that you are worried that she isn't brilliant at maths. Seriously, with that record, she is!

We do CIE and Edexcel IGCSE (depending on set).

I don't think people who get GCSE grade A* are necessarily brilliant at maths. In fact most of them aren't.

So a GCSE grade A* requirement is just too crude. I think they should let you do further maths if you want to do it.

bruffin - what does your son want to go on to do? Did the teachers give your son predicted grades that reflect his plans to improve his C grade?

"However, I am a little worried, having read this thread, that Further Maths is going to be very difficult."

But equally, it could be very easy for her, you just can't tell until you are half way through the syllabus. What is certain though is that in order to do Further Maths you have to have 100% grasp of the Maths syllabus, so the worst case is she drops FM half way through and improves Maths by a grade or two.

"I know she is good at Maths, but I don't think she would be necessarily be described as brilliant."

You don't have to appear brilliant at GCSE to do FM - I was in the top 10 at my (grammar) school in O level maths tests and mocks but got one of the highest marks in the country in A level FM.

"The way that the school she will probably go to (hers doesn't have 6th form) teaches it is AS Maths & Further Maths in Yr 12, A2 in both in Yr 13 - however she does have the choice of a different school which does AS & A2 Maths in Yr 12 followed by AS & A2 Further Maths in Yr 13. Which is better?"

I think the first way is better. That means she is doing FM topics alongside (or in sequence with) straight Maths; if it turns out she can't handle the FM she can drop it after taking the AS. With the "1 year course" approach you don't get to find out if you can't handle FM until half way through Y13 and then what? Also note that if aiming for Cambridge Natural Sciences or similar highly competitive courses, an A in Y12 won't count towards your offer, you will still be expected to get A*AA (or more) in Y13.

I don't think anyone said an A* at GCSE made you brilliant at maths, but I would definitely advice against further maths a-level if you haven't got one.

Advise, not advice!

My DS is applying for engineering degrees at uni. We (well mainly he) did have a little fight with school about predicted grades. Original predicted grade was A (mths) B (physics) C (FM) however got it improved to A* B B. It was helped that he managed to get a Gold in the Senior Maths Challenge the week before the UCAS application went in.

He does have an A* A A offer from Southampton and he is still waiting for a few others.
DS is complicated as he is dyslexic so does make silly mistakes ie calculator on the wrong setting, but stretches his teachers with the questions he asks. I think ds is seen as a bit of an oddity and gets away with a lot ie he got an A at GCSE so shouldnt have been allowed to take Further Maths but he got away with it.

LaVulcan. I hate to say this but an aspiring engineer is much better off having further maths if possible. The best universities like it (MEng courses) and certainly for mechanical, civil, structural. It means a student should have no trouble accessing the degree course content. People who did engineering years ago like my DH did not need it, and hardly anyone took it, but now it definitely helps get a place on a top course and so many more students take it. It should be a 4th A level and it is obviously taken by the most able, and definitely by aspiring engineers, not just mathematicians!

When I did maths A Levels, they had shunted off the hard stuff into the further maths syllabus. Some of the harder pure maths that used to be part of the regular A Level had been moved to 'further'.

So it was definitely harder than normal maths. The bits of Mechanics that involved calculus were on the Further syllabus, for example.

I can only imagine that by now with the ongoing dumbing down process that this will have been exacerbated.

What I forgot to say is that one of his applications was Bristol for Meng. They have rejected him for Mech eng but have invited him for an interview for Mathematics in Engineering which is also a Meng.

I have 2 MEng students in the family. Both are very thankful that they took further maths & it has definitely helped with their degree studies.

I agree with noblegiraffe.

Yes, but my son is now a Mechanical Engineer and Chartered also (having been to two good universities).

In his case the Further Maths was a distraction. We felt that it was largely due to the quality of teaching at the school - they were trying to shoe horn too much into the timetable, without sufficient resources and making something of a mess of it.

Maybe taught well, it would have helped. I don't know, I must ask him some time. I actually think that had they thought 4 A levels were worthwhile they would have been better encouraging a subject which required essay writing skills. Engineers have to write reports for much of their work.

Sorry, that's a bit of a digression, but it's the old story - three A levels taught and passed well, are better than 4 not quite so good ones.