Fed up with the education divide ?

[johnbunyan]

As a former Head of an independent school, I am fed up with the ideological divide in education, and want to start a national discussion on constructive ways to help the state and independent systems grow naturally together. I am secretary of a national group of independent day schools ( mostly the old direct grant schools ) and we look back to a time when there was much greater co-operation and a real sense of social mobility. Can we return to such a consensus ? I would love to hear ideas and start building towards such a consensus, since, as we approach the 2015 General Election, it will seem a long way away! I sense that many parents would like government and schools to work something out -and quickly -since the educational divide is simply not helpful to anybody - least of all the present generation. How many out there agree?

(pressed too early) that the existence of separate schools for the rich that offer advantages not available to those who cannot afford to pay for them, can only ever lead to reduced social mobility.

(Vanillachocolate)

That's a helpful, considered comment, horse.

trying I agree private schools are absurd in 2014. They probably contravene human right through institutional discrimination.

"What do you call a Primary School that lets a DD with an IQ of 138
enter high school with Level 3 C for English and 3 B for Maths...."

I don't know. You can have a high IQ and still be dyslexic.

But if we are talking about a child with no special educational needs, I would probably, unless there are other factors I don't know about, call it a pretty crap primary school. Next?

Trying - the biscuit was aimed at Vanillachocolate.

My DS has high IQ and left Primary with a Level 3 English - he has dyslexia. Now in English top set at comprehensive. Sad to think that some would have him relegated to a non-academic school or a school with no top set (secondary modern).

IQ is clearly not the be all and end all but it can correlate strongly with academic achievement, etc. I think there is a ceiling beyond which you couldn't be trained.

but you shouldn't need to make a choice or move to a catchment area etc. The standard of teaching / schools and opportunities that exist at Grammar should be available to Comps. Schools are tax payer funded and should be providing its customers equal opportunity.
Get primary school children up to the same level when they leave for secondary. In the French system they insist a child needs to repeat in primary if they are not making the grade at a particular year so that at secondary all have solid foundations. Alternatively have tests at Primary level entrance as per the Indies to see whether the child is ready for school and if not they start a year later so they are not struggling from the start.
Have more support/mentors in primaries so teachers can teach.
Fact is you cant change the society you live in and some parents don't care so unfortunately the education system will need to pick up the slack and put in place systems to support unsupported children and give them aspirations.

The idea that private schools should be abolished is unrealistic. What about those children who have parents stationed overseas? What about those overseas students who want a British style education but cannot enter UK mainstream schools. The specialist private schools providing drama or music, dance etc.

I've come across a number that choose private because they can just about afford it and don't want to take a gamble with an average child in an average school. Equally the Snob value of only wanting a private education for status. And then there are very academic kids who don't want to be held back and should be entitled fulfill their potential.

"The standard of teaching / schools and opportunities that exist at Grammar should be available to Comps."

Can I see the evidence that shows it isn't?

But then why would a parent who could afford a private school not put his DC into the local comp instead of the Grammar?

Cant see the MN threads asking how to get your child into the local Comp?

The idea that private schools should be abolished is unrealistic
And then there are very academic kids who don't want to be held back and should be entitled fulfill their potential. Exactly, totally agree.

So what is one problem that could be fixed to improve education?
Before discussing the solution, one need to identify the problem...

"But then why would a parent who could afford a private school not put his DC into the local comp instead of the Grammar?"

Well, some parents would. Why is this an issue?

Plenty of parents would still want to go private to keep their child away from the children of the "great unwashed"

Vanilla - posted solutions a while back in the thread

Plenty of parents would still want to go private to keep their child away from the children of the "great unwashed"

Evidence please Martorana?

What do you mean, evidence?

All I'm saying is that those who send their children private for reasons unrelated to academic or other achievement would still do so even if there was no noticeable difference in such achievement between state and private schools.

You can't have solutions if you don't know what problem you are solving.

All solutions were about abolishing private and selective schools, while what is needed is to fix the comprehensives.

But here there is a denial that tat there is a problem with comprehensives. Teaching in comprehensive is the best there is. Nothing special needs to be done about culture and underachieving pupils.

So nothing needs to be done, apparently.

sorry Vanilla don't follow - just abt to finish work so maybe brain fog.
Martorana - I agree, I know a few that feel they and their DC are above ordinary mortals but we are taking a tiny fraction . Many choose private education and really stretch themselves to provide perceived opportunities various schools offer.
Money will always provide more opportunity in every aspect of life. Is that wrong?

"But here there is a denial that tat there is a problem with comprehensives. Teaching in comprehensive is the best there is. Nothing special needs to be done about culture and underachieving pupils."

I don't think there is denial. But I do think that the anti-comprehensive culture on Mumsnet is so pervasive that those of us who, from experience and research, know that it is a model that can, and indeed, does, work are wary of saying anything negative lest it becomes a stick to beat us with.

Martorana - I don't think parents who send their kids to the local comp care any less. In fact they may well care more about their DC education. There are also the wealthy parents that offload difficult and underperforming children to boarding school. One of the poor girls from Dds Kindy was sent boarding halfway across the world aged 5 which is tantamount to child abuse IMO. So no I don't think parents sending kids to a comp care less!

Martorana no, what you said was Plenty of parents would still want to go private to keep their child away from the children of the "great unwashed"

It's the kind of emotive generalisation that I know you dislike other posters using without evidence to back up such a claim. So I was just asking where your evidence was coming from. Could you provide a link perhaps?

In answer to your quasi-rhetorical question, I think several of us on this thread have said that we don't want to send our kid to fee-paying schools because they are being perfectly well-educated at the local comp. And you cannot on the one hand ask that question and then concede that some of us do 'care about education' (a number of us are also quite well-educated, which is a separate issue but does reinforce the point that we might know the sort of outcomes we are looking for: if I rate my kids' English teachers, believe me they have to be pretty good).

OK- I retract "great unwashed"

"Even if state and private schools were indistinguishable in terms of academic and other achievement, plenty of parents would still choose private because of the intangible, je ne sais quoi that such institutions impart"

Better?

I agree that the comprehensive model does work in many instances. However,I think the reason why it works cannot be replicated and scaled up to all the schools in the country. That's why in majority of cases it doesn't.

So to bolster parents' confidence in comprehensive system one need to do something about the culture and the underachieving disruptive pupils.

So it works in many (numerically) but not in the majority (proportionately)?