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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

11+ vs 13+ confusion - have I screwed up?

28 replies

Crowler · 14/01/2014 19:48

My son is currently in a London prep and sat Latymer 11+ today and will sit Westminster in a couple of weeks.

We didn't do any of the 13+ pre-tests, not that I even have a firm grip on what that is (I'm not from the UK). Have we missed the boat on 13+ entries to the usual London day schools i.e. St Pauls, Hampton, City, etc if he's not accepted at Latymer or Westminster for 11+ (Westminster is aspirational, but both were on advice of head teacher). Am I meant to be signed up for 13+ at this point?

I know I should have spoken in greater depth with the head but I don't think I fully knew what I didn't know when original meetings were scheduled.

OP posts:
woodrunner · 14/01/2014 20:45

Pretty sure you should have already applied for 13+ for those schools. But call Admissions in the schools that interest you and ask. They might accept late entries from you if you are overseas.

Original poster
Crowler · 14/01/2014 20:49

I'm not overseas. Am I too late?

We may be overseas next year, in which case we'd apply as overseas candidates - any thoughts on this?

OP posts:
LadyMuck · 14/01/2014 21:13

Are you at a prep which goes to 13+?

Original poster
Crowler · 14/01/2014 21:13

Yes.

OP posts:
LadyMuck · 14/01/2014 21:18

Then I am amazed that they've put you in for 11+?

Um, yes you've missed 13+ for a lot of schools, but there are a few which allow 13+ without pretest (Dulwich, Whitgift). You need to get in to see the prep school head as soon as possible.

Original poster
Crowler · 14/01/2014 21:20

What do you mean, Lady Muck? School supports 11+ and 13+ equally. Am I missing your point?

OP posts:
meditrina · 14/01/2014 21:20

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure you are too late for St Paul's and maybe the others (check their websites?)

Your prep should be able to advise you which school pretest/assess in year 7, and which ones have 13+ competitive (non-CE) entry exams.

LadyMuck · 14/01/2014 21:22

It is rare for a prep to fully support both equally, and even when they do, they stream the boys at least from the start of year 6 into 11+ and CE streams as the syllabus is quite different. So at some point a decision will have been taken that your son is in one stream or the other.

Original poster
Crowler · 14/01/2014 21:29

I'm afraid I don't really understand the difference between the 11+ and CE. Can you explain?

There's no streams at my son's school, it's an 11+ curriculum

OP posts:
meditrina · 14/01/2014 21:37

As you're in London, you're in one of the places where it is likely school prepare pupils competently for 11+, 13+ competitive and CE, simply because of the number of potential destination schools.

11+ is a competitve exam, taken in January of year 6

13+ transfer can be by competitive exam two years later. Or it can be by Common Entrance, which is a qualifying, not competitive exam - if a pupil holding a conditional offer the reaches the pass mark, then they're in.

In the couple of years before CE, thwre's someon like a dating game, as parents seek conditional offers and then decide between them (you can not hold one offer). Schools might pre-test as part of their selection procedure for deciding who they make conditional offers to, or it might be interview, other assessment and prep school reference which carry most weight.

LadyMuck · 14/01/2014 21:46

Yes the senior schools all have different routes but usually you can't have 2 bites at the cherry ie for an individual school you usually have to choose 11+ or 13+.

If your prep head has steered you to Latymer and WUS then a) he thinks your ds has a very good chance, and b) he'll probably know what backup options you have.

Some of the preps (Rokeby) have fairly thorough destination school guides online which will summarise pretest and registration requirements.

LadyMuck · 14/01/2014 21:50

[http://www.rokebyschool.co.uk/documents/SeniorSchoolsGuide2012-13.pdf London senior school guide]

meditrina · 14/01/2014 21:50

Sorry typo - you cannot hold more than one offer. And it's the destination school which marks the paper. Ideally they have managed their list, so they have made the right number of offers to the pupils they want, and only if something fairly major had gone adrift is there a post-CE scramble (there are still some places for grabs, if a family opts for a competitive entry place and relinquishes CE offer late.

LadyMuck · 14/01/2014 21:51

London senior school guide

sleeplessknights · 14/01/2014 23:15

All these schools make you decide which route you are taking. At two I know of it was possible to change to the 13 plus pretest up until the week before the exam. As others have said I would get your head to advise asap. The Hampton one is not for a little while yet so maybe your head can ask if you can swap to 13 plus for Westminster as there are lots of misunderstandings in this transition year looking at other threads on here. If he is in a London prep it seems very odd that they would be advising 11 plus for him as on here the general view is that the big names schools dont bit the hand that feeds them so dont go poaching kids at 11.

Original poster
Crowler · 15/01/2014 06:53

If he is in a London prep it seems very odd that they would be advising 11 plus for him as on here the general view is that the big names schools dont bit the hand that feeds them so dont go poaching kids at 11.

Do you mean, most schools will stay away from kids until their schools can no longer keep them to avoid upset?

About half the kids leave at 11+, the other half 13+, the school supports them leaving at either time (although not at 7+).

OP posts:
meditrina · 15/01/2014 07:04

Some schools have "no poaching" agreements, but many don't.

A good Prep prepares the child for the school for the parent's choice of destination school at the age the parent wants them to transfer. They are of course, not passive in that process, being the main source of advice on suitable schools and when.

But something for parents choosing Preps to be wary of - when entering pre-prep, it is unlikely you will know your child well enough to make definitive decisions about secondary school and best time to transfer. A school that is limited in what sorts of transfer it supports might not be the best choice. (Obviously that will be different outside London and its huge range of potential schools).

meditrina · 15/01/2014 07:06

BTW: I don't think it would be possible to "switch" a WUS 11+ entry to a Westminster 13+ pretest - not least as the latter have already taken place.

Original poster
Crowler · 15/01/2014 07:12

BTW: I don't think it would be possible to "switch" a WUS 11+ entry to a Westminster 13+ pretest - not least as the latter have already taken place.

Sure. My son is sitting the exam in Feb.

My concern is that my son is a smart cookie, he's done well at his school & on NFER's etc, but he has totally lost steam in the past few weeks and his sample test paper scores are on the decline. I do feel a bit lost for guidance (obviously) and I'm not very comfortable in the aggressive parent role. Also I am not from here so the system is a mystery to me.

I was wondering why a lot of my son's friends have done the 13+ pre-tests and we haven't. I have no idea why their parents decided differently and to be honest that's not something the head discussed with me during our strategy meeting at the end of last year. I'm so confused.

OP posts:
Original poster
Crowler · 15/01/2014 07:14

And, sorry, forgot my manners - thank you for all your input here, much appreciated!

OP posts:
meditrina · 15/01/2014 07:19

Well, his friends will have done pretests because their parents are interested in those as destination schools for their DC and so registered them for entry; and this is what happens in the ordinary applications procedure.

If you think you need further fall-back options for your DC, then you need to find out schools which are still open for registration for 13+ for 2016 entry and what their admissions procedures are.

thekingfisher · 15/01/2014 07:19

I think an urgent meeting with the Head is in order to reassure you and to perhaps discuss alternatives as a PLan B. They should also be able to provide your son with support in areas of weakness on sample papers. I think you need to engage V quickly with these school - they are experts in this and you need their help at the very least to understand what you strategy is and to explain why the route you have been advised to take, you are taking.

I know at our (non-London Prep) there is a huge amount of support - BUT critically if you don't flag up that you are confused (which frankly I don't blame you being the London schools thing is a nightmare and we are soooooooo well out of it!) they won't know.

Original poster
Crowler · 15/01/2014 07:25

I should have told them I was confused, you're right. I wish I were out of this London crap, I'm not cut out for dealing with it.

To add confusion to this whole matter we're possibly moving abroad next year and have applications in at international schools. Moreover husband would like my son to go to the American School in St John's Wood (in the long-term) which is where he went. On top of the fact that I know fuck all about schools here. So my head is spinning.

OP posts:
Original poster
Crowler · 15/01/2014 07:26

But thanks guys, I will schedule meeting with the head.

OP posts:
meditrina · 15/01/2014 07:29

The American School does its own thing for admissions. So you can apply there in parallel to other schools.

If you are really likely to move, then it might be better for your DS to stay put at his current prep. For unless you choose a boarding school, he might be facing a number of school moves (depending on whether it's a permanent move, or you/DH have the sort of job where you do move from time to time) so minimising the number now might be worth it.