Page 3 | Russell Education Trust/Russell Group Universities

TalkinPeace · 26/12/2013 22:05

It's the way most new schools build their curriculum
did they tell you that or do you have independent evidence?

just that until the block on LEAs opening schools
it was certainly NOT how LEAs opened new schools
because they put them in areas of need
so they were full within two or three terms

wrigglingAndGiggling · 26/12/2013 22:12

"because they put them in areas of need so they were full within two or three terms"

No, they opened with a (possibly) full Year 7 only, then the following year they had a Y7 and Y8, then the next year a Y7/Y8/Y9. They built up by one year group each year. (Otherwise, where did all the older students come from?)

A new maintained school has recently opened up near us (yes, it can be done ... there are still routes open to do that, they're just not straightforward), and it is building up in the same way.

TalkinPeace · 26/12/2013 22:21

A new maintained school has recently opened up near us
Really?
I've done a bit of a search and can only find existing schools moving into new buildings.
No evidence on the Dfe website of what you say.

wrigglingAndGiggling · 26/12/2013 22:27

"Really?"

Yes, really. I will PM you the link, but prefer not to name it publicly.

friday16 · 26/12/2013 22:47

Yes, really. I will PM you the link, but prefer not to name it publicly.

Jesus, stealth maintained schools that can't be named. Whatever next?

wrigglingAndGiggling · 26/12/2013 22:52

"prefer not to name it publicly"

I don't particularly want to give my location away publicly. Plus its a complex situation that's been covered extensively on other threads, so I don't want to bring it into this conversation. It's not really relevant to this thread - I just know Talkin likes to see some evidence!

daphnedill · 26/12/2013 23:07

Just coming back to this thread, but want to pick up about TAs.

Talkinpeace....do you have a primary school background? Maybe that explains our differing views about TAs. In my opinion, TAs are overused in secondary schools. In many classrooms they don't have a defined role and are actually quite disruptive to learning. Pupils come to rely on them doing the work for them. At the other end of the scale, some of the neediest pupils are fobbed off with the worst trained adults.

And, yes, I'm aware that some TAs are brilliant!

I'm old enough to remember a time when it was the norm not to have any TAs in a secondary school classroom and I really would like to see some solid research justifying their place in secondary schools. For me, warning bells ring when I see so many!

daphnedill · 26/12/2013 23:38

I believe it could be a Catholic maintained school. The court case has set quite an interesting precedent. ;-)

I agree with the others - it's a totally daft way to build a curriculum. Not only that, but the free school in question is supposed to have specialisms, which are not reflected in the curriculum design. If the curriculum hasn't yet been decided, why on earth publish something which is just a rehash of the National Curriculum?

I can only hope that the steering group of the new free school asked some very searching questions about the demise of Parsons Mead School and how the £16million which was raised from selling the site to a developer is being used. I also hope that the group asked some very searching questions about RET's actual provable role in London Challenge, because there's quite a lot available online about the project, but I haven't been able to find one reference to Education London/Russell Education Trust's involvement, apart from one reference on a 2020- hosted site (2020 was until recently another of the Lynchs' companies). I wouldn't expect you to publish the replies, but I sincerely hope that you DID ask the questions!

daphnedill · 27/12/2013 00:40

Just two last points:

1 It's Brentwood not Brentford

2 The national average secondary school pupil/teacher ratio is 15.6, so 18 teachers (and there's no indication that they're all full time) for 300 pupils is a high ratio - and there aren't even any small option groups at GCSE or A level to worry about yet - that's my point!

wrigglingAndGiggling · 27/12/2013 02:26

"I haven't been able to find one reference to Education London/Russell Education Trust's involvement"

EL are mentioned in the Government report I linked to earlier. Here it is again.

daphnedill · 27/12/2013 02:39

What page is it on? I looked previously and couldn't find it.

By the way, the RET isn't a charitable trust - it's a private limited company by guarantee - I think you need to change your website!

daphnedill · 27/12/2013 02:48

Have scanned all the documents again - I'm still missing any references to Education London and Google throws up nothing.

daphnedill · 27/12/2013 02:55

Nope! There's something very fishy here! I hope you have satisfactory explanations - for the sake of the hundreds of children you intend to educate and the millions of pounds of public money you'll be controlling. I'm going to leave it now, but I know somebody with much better investigative resources than I have - he's looking for a new project!! :-)

wrigglingAndGiggling · 27/12/2013 08:10

"What page is it on? I looked previously and couldn't find it......Have scanned all the documents again"

Try using ctrl-F to do a text search. Pages vii, 51, 52, 57, 104.

"By the way, the RET isn't a charitable trust - it's a private limited company by guarantee"

Yes it is. All academy trusts, including those for converter academies, transformational academies and free schools, are set up as private companies limited by guarantee. Their charitable status is conferred on them when they sign an academy funding agreement with the DfE. They are known as "exempt charities" and there is more information on the Charity Commission website here.

wrigglingAndGiggling · 27/12/2013 08:24

"The national average secondary school pupil/teacher ratio is 15.6 ..."

Where is that figure from? According to this report, the "average teaching hours of full-time secondary classroom teachers have fluctuated between 18.9 and 19.8 between 2003 and 2010 .... Numbers of teaching assistants and other support staff increased after policy changes were introduced to boost the number of support staff in schools. This would explain the falling PAR from 2000 to 2010. "

peteneras · 27/12/2013 10:27

”Can anyone confirm if the Free School sponsor "Russell Education Trust" is linked to the Russell Group Universities please?”

The Chinese have a saying, “Not every man who sports a moustache is your father.”

Ahhh . . . very clever, those Chinese!

straggle · 27/12/2013 12:53

I am deeply suspicious of all of Gove's policies. Free schools that have opened in areas of surplus places (particularly rural areas) and/or have religious admissions criteria are particularly divisive. The whole academies programme is chaotic, anti-democratic and lacking transparency.

I wouldn't view this sponsor with as much suspicion as some of the other for-profit companies, though - at least individuals in the trust have had experience of managing state schools in this country. I don't think there is any private equity behind EL like IES or a lot of the private school operators trying to get in on the act (does anyone know?). The London Challenge report does say positive things about their school improvement consultants in secondary schools. I don't get the impression that they have been championed by Tory local politicians or other ideological flag wavers either.

Interesting to know how they arrived at the name. There are global private school chains use names like 'Westminster', 'Wellington' and 'Winchester', etc. just to borrow the kudos. I wonder if they have ever been sued?

Mary1972 · 27/12/2013 13:12

(The CHinese are known for their breach of copyright and trade marks however so I am not so sure their sayings are appropriate to countries with laws against passing off)

Although I would never use state schools and didn't go to them myself, we do know someone who went to one and it started I believe with 1 form/year group. Is that not the norm
for new schools? Nothing wrong with that at all. It is this one www.jcoss.org/welcome-to-jcoss

The legal regime is set by law as someoe else said above - they are all companies limited by guarantee. That is the legal route also used by many many charities. It is perfectly legitimate.

peteneras · 27/12/2013 13:42

So, what you are saying is, in countries with laws against breach of copyright, every man who sports a moustache is your father?

And that does not stop you from buying and using Chinese products either. Just look around your household and see how many products are made in China; maybe even the hardware you used to post your message is made in China too!

wrigglingAndGiggling · 27/12/2013 13:50

" I don't think there is any private equity behind EL"

No, EL are a small family-run educational consultancy. They set up RET using their own funds and put a lot of pro-bono work into supporting local groups to propose schools. As each school has been approved the trust has received Gvt funding in accordance with their funding agreements. Those funds are used to run the schools. In accordance with the funding agreements RET operates on a non-profit basis and the trustees don't draw a salary.

The schools can benefit from access EL services on an at-cost basis if they want to use them, but no profit is made by EL for any services provided to RET schools.

All that info is on some of the school websites.

Whathaveiforgottentoday · 27/12/2013 19:39

Becket keys in brentwood does not employ unqualified staff. I know this as a close friend works there. I didn't and still don't agree with the opening of this free school for many reasons but I can say they employ qualified staff.

daphnedill · 28/12/2013 15:18

To answer the question about teacher/pupil ratio...

Look at the DfE's workforce data in the latest performance tables.

For example...

www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=136442

or

www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/search.pl?location=saffron+walden+county+high+school&phase=all&searchType=location

You'll see that the national average for state-funded secondaries is 15.6. Schools with large sixth forms will tend to have a lower ratio.

Mary,

How would a school finance having enough specialist teachers to teach just one class at secondary level? After the initial set-up funding, free schools get no more money per pupil than any other state-funded school.

daphnedill · 28/12/2013 15:36

Whathavei...

As I raised the issue of the number of TAs at Becket Keys, I should clarify that I wasn't suggesting that the school employs unqualified teachers. However, my eyebrows were raised by the number of TAs the school employs. There has been some research suggesting that a high number of TAs at secondary level doesn't necessarily raise attainment. There are a number of reasons for this, but that's for another thread.

My concern with RET/EL is the blurring of governance and financial issues in the model adopted. Parachuting one of the two named advisers into the headship role would also bother me. What will the original proposers do if the head doesn't do the job they intended or they find out that they want to end the contract, when the advisers are so heavily involved with trusteeship and governance? By the way, I still can't find any reference to EL's involvement in London Challenge.

How do you know that RET/EL aren't making money out of setting up free schools? They've had over a million pounds of government money over the last couple of years. I have no evidence that the money has been misspent, but I looked at their accounts and it isn't clear how it has been spent. I'm also bothered by the involvement of a former DfE adviser. From an outsider's perspective, this smacks of "jobs for the boys".

I assume you asked questions about these issues when you accepted RET advice.

wrigglingAndGiggling · 28/12/2013 15:55

"What will the original proposers do if the head doesn't do the job they intended or they find out that they want to end the contract, when the advisers are so heavily involved with trusteeship and governance?"

The school Heads are accountable to the school Governors, as they are at any other school. They are also accountable to RET. Underperformance would be identified and dealt with as it would in any school will an effective board of Governors.

"By the way, I still can't find any reference to EL's involvement in London Challenge."

Follow the link to the report, open the document called "Evaluation of the City Challenge programme" and look at the pages I listed.

"How do you know that RET/EL aren't making money out of setting up free schools?"

Because the funding agreement with the DfE prevents that. I suggest you read it.

"I'm also bothered by the involvement of a former DfE adviser. From an outsider's perspective, this smacks of "jobs for the boys"."

The DfE employs a lot of senior educationalists as advisers, many of whom are successful Headteachers on secondment. They're exactly the sort of people who should be involved in setting up new schools.

wrigglingAndGiggling · 28/12/2013 16:38

"Look at the DfE's workforce data in the latest performance tables"

Then you would need to compare the same data-set for Becket Keys, but it's not available yet because it's a new school.

Otherwise you're not comparing like with like. For example, you say "Schools with large sixth forms will tend to have a lower ratio", but Becket Keys won't even have a Sixth Form until 2017.