Confident speaking! A preserve of Private?

[Erebus]

I was only thinking this a few days ago when a good friend told me how her 16 y.o. DS, at 6th Form college, had flunked the interview for a Saturday job where they're 'never knowingly undersold' . He's a quiet, shy lad but absolutely lovely, capable of talking one to one with an adult but wouldn't for instance wander into the sitting room where his mum's friends were chatting and strike up conversation, iyswim. He and she are gutted, but I wonder if my as yet Y10 would do any better?

By his own admission, this lad spent the interview (which appears to have been in front of several people) mumbling at the floor. He was told that 'he wasn't the type of lad the store was looking for'...

Another friend mentioned how they'd had friends around for lunch and how the friends' Y12 DD spent the lunch in engaging conversation with the grown ups (whereas her Y8 DB spent the non-eating bits with my mate's DSs, Ys9 and 11 on their ipods in another room). My mate is a bit perturbed that all of these DCs go to an academic, selective private in a major university city and that she'd sort of hoped that her own DS, Y11, would have been able (or willing?) to chat to the grown ups, too, but didn't... however, I believe her DS can in that he chatted away to me quite happily back in the summer when her boys and mine returned from an adventure holiday, to our house, before his parents came to fetch them. The mum was relieved to hear this, though the boy concerned has known me all his life!

However, the fact remains- if your DC isn't theatrical, i.e. doing drama, is there a practical, non-contrived way to help them learn how to communicate confidently with adults? Making eye contact? Smiling and listening appropriately? Major public schools seem to manage it- how?! I mean, where, realistically, do our DCs get the chance to talk to adults unless you're a social butterfly and are always out and about with your DC? State school teachers don't have the time to 'make' each child stand up and articulate what they're trying to say with appropriate encouragement and tutoring, do they?

I had friends who spent a year in the Victorian state education system in Oz. They weren't blown away, all in all, but she did say her DC had 'public speaking' as a primary school curriculum topic which she thought was a good idea.

I interview work experience students (year 11), placement students (first year Uni) and prospective applicants for jobs.
There are confident individuals from both the private and state sectors. Someone (probably parents) is teaching them good firm handshake, making eye contact and speaking confidently.
I also have work experience students who arrive who are shy and struggle with this skill. Whenever, we meet with clients I introduce them 'Susie is here doing work experience with us from St Joe's'. Clients then chat to them and their confidence develops.
Some people are born confident like my DD yes she is at private school, but she has talked to anyone who would listen since she could talk. Others it is a learned skill usually by observing others.

DH did debating at (state) school which helped a lot, there are debating societies for teens in some places. Of course as a shy type I would have made myself sick rather than go to such a thing. Then I had to learn how to talk in front of people in my first professional job.

But it has to be contrived really, the idea is to get them used to doing something which they don't currently have the opportunity to. Its not going to come up naturally...

I don't think it's a state vs private issue. I agree that it's a "practice" thing. Boarding school children often seem precociously good at it because they talk to so many different adults every day that it stops being an embarrassment very quickly.

DS is comfortable and articulate with adults he knows well. Outside of that he freezes with fear and mumbles at best. He had a similar experience as the lad you mention with an interview for a part time job. I have recognised this as a problem and done my best to enable him to overcome his natural difficulty but with little success.
I do think that selective and private schools place much more emphasis on public speaking. I also think there is a noticeable male / female divide. In general most of DSs male friends are similar to him and the girls can look you in the eye and have a conversation.
I would love for my DC school to consider this as an important part of their education as exams. Practice at job interviews should be part of the curriculum.

I just sat through an end of term assembly at my daughters state school, every child in the class (aged 8 to 9) had a piece to say. Some were better than others and had memorised their passage whilst others used their script but they all spoke well, with confidence and had clearly practiced hard. The teachers had obviously put in a lot of time but there is the rub, time and a will to develop confidence in each child. She is in a class of 16 so perhaps that in itself is the answer.

I know that doesn't really answer your question about how to go about instilling a confident manner in our kids. As another poster said, debating helps, not only with the public speaking side but also the act of having to think on your feet which allows confidence to grow. I don't think state schools invest enough in debating clubs. The private schools do, they also have poetry recitals and book clubs, English speaking examinations too and all of this starts young in prep/primary school.

Where could you get some help? You could check and see if there is an orators club anywhere near you or a toastmasters International. They teach public speaking skills in a friendly environment where all the members would listen to him speaking and offer up advice and tips on how to improve. You normally have to be 18 but I'm sure if you contacted them they would perhaps send a representative to talk to the kids at school or help in some other way if they could. I know from experience that they can be helpful as I belong to one of these clubs and my DS who is only 15 has been encouraged by them to come along with me as he enjoys public speaking but still had some issues like the no eye contact and doing lots of ahs and umms etc when he is talking. They have been brilliant with him and he loves it. By the way he goes to a public school where he has all the resources I spoke of but toastmasters have helped him enormously.

I do think the private schools are better at preparing the kids more for this though ... you may all laugh but my DD has regularly had to give power point presentations in front of the class since she was quite small! Terrifying at first but obviously builds up confidence ...and she is now confident at looking adults in the eye and talking with them directly and clearly, even if she's only just met them. The private schools also have a lot of debating in class and debating clubs as someone else said ... and the smaller classes help ... I'm sure there are ways round though for other kids ... like drama groups etc ...

I think children in private schools learn earlier on that they and their opinions are valued, and this is a lot easier in a small class. In a state school of 30 kids you are regularly told to keep quiet, rarely if chosen if your hand is up (by default, as you are one of 30).

Similarly if parents have other professional friends who show an interest in the children, chat to you like you are have interesting things to say the idea that what you have to say is reinforced.

I seen to have slipped through the net of life at the moment and we can't afford private school and through regular moving and being broke don't have a good circle of professional friends. I think a lo of this daily interaction is what builds the child's confidence and feel we are starting on the back foot.

My state school did lots of debating and presentations in front of the class. I am very confident with strangers and interviewers. You need to teach children specifically - this is how you greet someone, maintain eye contact (but not scary eye contact!), and speak clearly and at an appropriate volume. Just try to make one change at a time and give them opportunities to practise.

DD1 is too in your face and loud naturally, but she does a grown up hobby and is getting lots of practice at toning it down.

DD2 is a bit shy when it suits her to play the dizzy 12y and she'd much prefer not to speak to adults except when it suits her.

However, it's a bit of an act (she is pretty good actress and always gets cast as someone bossy), so if she actually wants something chances are she'll do fine.

It's so many things...

I remember all thoroughly childhood the conversation around the dining table. Both my parents were great talkers and arguers, politically engaged simply through their existence in a particular set of circumstances. So we learned from them. Which, I suppose, meant that this was noticed and commented on at school and by other adults. So we began to understand more consciously that it was a valuable thing to be able to do. And we moved on to schools where debating was a big deal. Then variously into talking professions. And inevitably, through both nature and nurture, we have passed those skills on to the next generation. Who are, as you described, equally happy talking to adults as to other children. Accustomed to public speaking and performance from the early years of school. Encouraged to argue about the news. And lead discussions in the classroom.

I think in other countries this might not be such a private / state school divide as it can seem to be here. It is the nature of the teaching, rather than whether it is paid for, surely, that makes the difference. There's no reason why these skills shouldn't be developed in a state school, if that is where the emphasis lies.

I did a public speaking at (state) school, but I had the impression it was a lot more optional for us than for my cousins in private education. I do think that ex-public school types do seem more likely to have an air of confidence and leadership in general - I have also met those who seem quite socially scarred by their school days.

My middle school was also a church school, and from time to time, I did readings in church. I think any experience like that is useful, especially if you have someone who tells you to look up and look at your audience and how to project your voice (a skill some of my colleagues certainly lack, going by the large meeting we had earlier in the week.)

It's all stuff which can be learnt, but any skill needs practice, and I think you get more opportunities for that in private schools, as a general rule (and all general rules have their exceptions.)

I think it varies wildly in the state sector - my DDs have both been taught public speaking at their state schools, DD1's school has a debating competition every year and DD2 has presented projects in front of the whole class as well as attending the (voluntary) debating club. Not all schools offer this sort of thing though, and they should.

As a very general rule I think you're probably right but it may not be just the fact that they are at the private school but also that the parents who are able to afford to send their children to private schools will tend to be higher earners/more socially confident/able to prepare their children better than the overall population of state school pupils.

My DC are at state schools but not old enough to be going for interveiws so I don't know what preparation they do but I imagine not much as they just don't have time.

There are confident articulate young people in all sectors.

However, what I think the private sector does well is helping with those DC who are not natural public speakers. My DS for example.

Over the years he has been given no choice but to speak in public (just school stuff, but still daunting) regularly. And he has been given a lot of tips/training along the way.

Interviews are the same. He had interviews for secondary school, and plenty of practice at primary.

But any parent could replicate this stuff I think, with a bit of imagination .

But (almost) everyone can talk to their children at home..... And when they're out with them.

It's alarming to see people on the street, in shops, parks wherever with toddlers - ignoring them completely. Ears clamped to something more interesting. Or walking six feet ahead of the child. It really isn't solely the school's responsibility to socialise a child.

Ds has always been a good speaker (and has won public speaking competitions!) and communicator. He is at a state school. He is now 15 and has got a bit more awkward, as he has this (awful) squeaky, croaky voice which is high pitched one minute then suddenly plunges into a deep bass. Before he went off to work experience we did shaking hands and "How do you do?" practice.

I wouldn't stress about the "never knowingly undersold" debacle. They are notoriously up their own arses. Friend of mine had Saturday job there for several years. After university she applied to their training scheme and was summarily rejected, after being their star salesperson. Her entire family vowed never to darken the door of that emporium again!

lboro you make a good point about the parents.

Confident, engaging parents will pass this on to some extent. At least the DC see it in practice...

X post! Was in answer to lboro.

sthing and people mumble, and speak inappropriately. And hunch their shoulders and don't smile!

Ugh!

I'm not sure I agree that only well to do, loud, confident parents can pass on speaking skills. There's no reason why quiet, unconfident parents should not have opinions on current affairs, or funny things happening during their days, or interesting stories from their own youth, which they can share with their children - and encourage them to respond to.

I think it starts earlier, and is far less of a formal process than people are willing to consider.

sthing no one mentioned loud!!!! You added that .

But it goes without saying that seeing confident public engagement day in day out is bound to rub off a bit.

As for interesting discussions etc. They're all fine, of course. But a child has to learn to express himself outside the family circle. And if his main example is a parent mumbling, fiddling on their phone, making no eye contact etc, then it's going to be harder.

Obviously, there will be notable exceptions. But generally this is the case.

One of the things DH most wanted for DC out of private school was confidence. DH isn't naturally outgoing. Very shy really. As is DS. DH has really had to force himself along the way and he wanted it to come far more naturally to the DC, especially DS who is, like him, naturally shy.

Oddly enough I was going to "loud" but something distracted me.

is there a practical, non-contrived way to help them learn how to communicate confidently with adults?

I wrote a long rambling post in the middle of the night but I realise now that I may not have tried hard enough to find an answer to the question. Everything I've related falls into the "non-contrived" category. I can see it must take a lot more effort if these things don't come naturally.....

I'm not talking about formal presentations here, but I do have a couple of things I've learned about speaking confidently in front of strangers because it is something that doesn't come at all naturally to me.

When you first meet the person look them in the eye and smile. If there is more than one person, take a moment to look and smile at everyone individually. In a work situation I'd probably shake hands, but certainly "eye contact; smile; nod; say hello".

Force yourself to chip in and say something as soon as you can. The longer you leave it, the harder it is to break the silence. The first comment doesn't have to be anything wise or earth shattering, just short and vaguely relevant.

When someone else says something, concentrate on what they are saying, look interested. Don't use the time while they are speaking to drift off and think about how embarrassed you feel.

Never look at the floor. Look at the people, maybe look down notes to stop it feeling too intense.

The more you pretend to be confident, the more you look confident and the more you feel confident.

I suppose, to come back to the OP, some private school children do have a certain confidence. Sometimes they come across as bumptious or arrogant which, of course, does them no favours. I took dd to an exam at which there was a group of girls from a posh public school. God, they were awful. They looked super confident, with much hair flicking and braying. Confident - yes, but pleasant - no.

I think nice manners are always impressive. A young person can be quiet but, as MrsCakes says, a bit of eye contact, a look of interest and a friendly expression goes a long way.

MrsC Surely the point is that some children have mastered most of this by the time they start prep school? Because of the "talking culture" at home.

So it isn't really fair to ascribe future success purely to the advantage of a fee-paying school.