Which school do I put as 1st choice?

[Whereisegg]

Ok so I know how this is going to sound, but it was a huge shock when we found out dd failed her 11+ on Saturday.

She is g&t for maths (school often takes her out of class for one to one maths as she is so ahead), literacy and reading.
Top of all classes, aced all practise papers, so as I say, we were all shocked.

There is another excellent secondary we all love but we would have to pay for her transport as there's another school closer to us, but it's pretty bad.

Anyway, will be ringing the grammar tomorrow to find out her school and to see if its worth an appeal, but how long does this take?
Which school should we put as our first choice on applications in the meantime?

*find out her score, not school

There is no harm putting the grammar first especially if it's borderline. There are waiting lists before appeals as well. I know one boy who scraped in off the waiting list.

Thanks for the reply, I forgot to add though, that the other secondary basically said that anyone who put them as second choice would prob not get in as they are so popular.
Is this right?

I'm not from this county so 11+ and grammar are all new to me, I'm so confused and stressed

I'd suggest putting the grammar school on the CAF and appealing. I don't think you will be able to appeal until after March 1st though.

I hope your DD is OK. I have two DDs who have successfully gone through the process but it is brutal. Received wisdom seems to be that it's rare that someone gets in who shouldn't, but too often someone doesn't get in who should - which seems to be the case with your DD. Good luck for whatever course of action you choose to take.

Thank you both!
Will have to see what score she achieved tomorrow then, had parents evening tonight and her teacher was visibly shocked she hadn't passed.

the other secondary basically said that anyone who put them as second choice would prob not get in as they are so popular.

That's bollocks. Grammar first choice, it will make no difference whether the second school is first or second after non-qualification for the grammar.

Sorry to hear you had a shock and upsetting result.

Could it be that the whole experience of the exam put her off? Being clever does not guarantee that children perform well under exam conditions - another brutal aspect of the 11+.

If you are in England the info that the school gave you is wrong. Schools can only (by law) admit according to how you meet the entry requirement, and not where you put them on the list. So if you live very vey close to a school but pace it last on your list you will be offered a place at that school ahead of someone who live further away but puts it first.

The local authority offer you a place at the school which is highest of your preferences and which is able to offer you a place.

So it is important that you list the schools in the order that you would genuinely prefer them.

Look at as many schools as possible. And look at the school's profile on the dept of education website and check how well high achieving children do in that school. Will you have a chance of getting into the other excellent school? Is it oversubscribed? Do you live close enough?

Sorry your dd has had a disappointment, but there may be value in appealing, and good education doesn't only happen in grammar schools, as you know from the other school you have seen.

Everyone gets one offer on National offer day, if you don't get one of your top choices you automatically go on the waiting list for any school higher up the list than the one you were offered - and then over the summer there is a big shift round as people move up waiting lists.

Good luck!

I'm not grown up enough for this

It all boils down to something v simple:

Check what might have happened to her 11+, decide re appealing etc.

If there is any chance of getting a grammar place, put it first on the list.

Put the excellent other school second on your list

Put any other good schools you might have a chance at next on the list

Put your nearest school that you would definitely get offered a place at last on your list. (if it is actually the school you would like least)

Remember:
To appeal a place at a school, you have to have listed it.
Once schools have been allocated, you will automatically be put on the waiting list for any schools you put higher up your list.

I have never seen dd in an exam situation so unsure if she reacts badly, there were no worries or sleepless nights.

I have always tried to be very calm about these things (sats etc) as they don't concern me as such, just like her getting into the grammar isn't something I view as necessary.
There was no hot housing, or pep talks.

We are VERY happy with the 'second choice' school, but dd said she would like to appeal.

The school closest to us (literally round the corner) is terrible.

Do we have to list it?

Had she had any practice with the kinds of question in the 11+ exam? Maybe she was just thrown?

It all depends on your chances of getting a place in the schools which are further away from your house. If they are very oversubscribed it might be that you don't live close enough t get a place.

Where do other children from your road or your dds school go? Do they get into the school you like?

The reason you have to list one school you will actually get a place in is because if none of the schools you list can offer you a place then the local Authority will give you a place in whatever school has vacancies after everyone else's preferences have been allocated. So it may be even worse and and miles away from the local school.

The local authority should have a booklet about all the schools which tells you whether everyone who applied got a place, or gives the distances for the places offered. However, I THINK these distances are those for places offered in the first round of offers, not any that come up over the summer on the waiting list.

If you don't list the school around the corner - then you could end up being offered a "terrible school" on the other side of the county. Is that a risk you want to take?

Hi Op,

Firstly, I think it's important to note that Grammar schools are so incredibly competitive these days, with children tutored as much as three/four years in advance of the test, that it really is no reflection on how smart you child is when they don't get a place. In fact now, when parents tell me they're hoping for their child to go to a grammar school. my first thought is, good luck.

Secondly, it infuriates me when I repeatedly hear of schools telling parents you have to put their school first on the list to stand a chance. This same thing had me in an unnecessary stressful situation for months before I was educated otherwise. LET ME STRESS WHAT EVERYONE ELSE HAS SAID - THE SCHOOL DOES NOT HAVE A DARN CLUE WHAT POSITION ON THE LIST YOU PUT THEM!Nonetheless, do check out your LA's website if you need to be reassured.

I believe the only time you need to be concerned as to where you put a school on the list is if, for example, you were applying to a Christian school of some sort, were appealing a place on the grounds of a christian school being of paramount importance but yet listed a non christian school before them. There are better experts on MN than me though with regards to the whole appeal aspect.

Please think twice however, about not listing at all the horrid school nearby. As failing your child not getting any of the schools on your list, I am quite confident that the school that will be offered otherwise will be the only one with a vacancy and ten times worse. I meet a lot of parents who say they're only listing say three schools, for example, as those are the only schools they want, thinking that the LA will see that and say, okay then, you can have one of those. When if you don't meet the criteria for those three, then you get the LA's choice which is usually dismal one.

Brilliant advice, much appreciated, thanks all

They get thousands (literally) of level 5 and level 6 children entering for them so have to make them incedibly hard just to sort the good from the very good students.

It's not clear from the OP's posting as to whether they're living in an area with super-selectives which take around 2% of the cohort, where what you say is definitely true (Birmingham, say), or one of the areas which still have a grammar/secondary-modern split throughout the system (Kent, Buckinghamshire, Wirral) where about 20% of the cohort is deemed suitable for selective education.

The implications of not getting a selective place are different between the two systems.

The super-selectives skim a small number of disproportionately middle-class high achievers off the top, but leave the mainstream schools as essentially comprehensive. The effect of the super-selectives is probably no greater than the effect of private schools and home education, taken across the city. The comprehensives which lose the most children to the super-selectives still have an intake which skews significantly towards high achievers because of their catchment areas, and many schools don't lose a single potential entrant to the super-selectives. The effect is more pronounced at sixth form, but in general terms the comprehensives are able to operate without too much impact from the vestigial voluntary aided schools.

In the areas which retain the pre-1970 11+ which selects about 20%, the non-grammar schools simply can't operate as comprehensives, because the entire top set has been removed. In that situation, the exam is nothing like as much of a lottery, and if the OP's child has been working at a suitable level there's an extensive review and appeal process, before getting on to a full-on admissions appeal, to try to sort things out.

We live in lincolnshire.

Dd had done several practise papers at home, to familiarise with the style of questions.
She aced every single one.

Her score was 204, needing 220 to pass, but I have no idea if it's scored as one point per question.
If it is, that's quite a gap.

They are standardised scores which means they have been through a proces to make them comparable and to ensure a certain proportion of children pass (and fail) the test.

And of course, unusually amongst exams that are taken by children, they're age-standardised. The scores are standardised so that children born in September have less of an advantage over children born in August than they usually would. I say "less of" because August-born children are still under-represented in grammars, probably because they're under-represented amongst people who take the 11+ in the first place.

And of course, in super-selective areas the 11+ scores don't need to be comparable from year to year: they just take the first 120 (or whatever). In Kent/Buckingham/etc there's a fixed score, such that if you get over that score you're given a grammar place (although it may not be close) while if not enough people get over that score, they leave places empty.

At DD1's school, which will now be DD2's school next year, the 'qualifying mark' is being in the top 120 on a paper. So, if you are top 120 on all 3 papers, you are in category A, top 120 on 2 out of the 3, category B, and the rest go in category C. the scores are then ranked and the 120 places are filled first from cat A and then cat B. So the 'pass mark' is completely relative. But at least the process is easily understandable for the participants.

If you all love the secondary then put it first and forget the grammar. I would say it is best to be top at the secondary than bottom at the grammar. We turned down a grammar school place for my eldest and it was the best decision that we ever made.

Fill up your CAF with schools that you are happy with, but your last choice should be a school that you know your child will get a place at.

Check catchment distances for the school that you favour. Would your address be close enough to gain a place in the last 5 years? If not, then still put it first choice, but look for other schools to fill up the lower preferences on your CAF that are sure to accept your daughter.

Actually always put insurance places on a CAF.

Oh where are you OP? I'm from grammar school area of LIncs!

Agree with advice here, put the school you like and the local school.