understanding what's remarkable for GSCE

[Beauchamp]

Govt statistics always quote the number of children who get 5 or more A*-C grades in GSCE but is this normal i.e. if a school had a lot of children who didn't get this, would it indicate a problem with the teaching?

how much does a child need to get to have something to write home about? What about 9 or more A or A* grades?

Its all changed so much since my day, I just don't know how to interpret the numbers anymore.

To all those saying universities don't make mention of A* grades: www.dur.ac.uk/business/degrees/undergrad/business/applying/entry-reqs/

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/9221229/The-steep-climb-to-university-starts-with-GCSEs.html

So ner.

mmmdonuts
Admittedly, Durham Business school would not have been one I would hadlooked at.
But a majority of A or A GCSE as a tiebreaker, is still not the same as asking for 5 or 6 A.

It's not just Business School, I've seen it on History and I'm sure there are other competitive courses, e.g. Medicine or Law, that would do the same.

But mmmdonuts, what you said was: "Russell Group universities for competitive courses will ask for say, 5 or 6 A's or more.".This is a broad statement (some would say all RG courses are competitive), not supported by your links ("a string of good GCSE results, with the majority at A or A" - says the Durham business course; the other link is an opinion piece by "a former headmaster", with no links to specific course requirements), and which could put people off applying.

Attitudes and requirements vary, even among very competitive courses, and it is difficult to generalise. Anyone can verify this for themselves by looking at the UCAS website, the websites for specific courses at universities, and their admissions policies.

I teach in a fairly leafy lane comp, our 5 A* -C inc English and Maths varies between 80 -90%. I would suggest any school that is not in a very deprived area that is raving about a 50% pass rate is nothing like as good as it is pretending to be.

Only two of the comps in Hampshire get over 80%
www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/education/school_tables/secondary/12/html/eng_maths_850.stm?compare=
yours must be very very leafy.
Any of the ones at over 45% get good results with their bright kids...

Perhaps I phrased my original post inaccurately. Applicants will have a much better advantage at RC unis if they have 5 or 6 A's or more. I have read somewhere that History at Durham, for example, didn't take anyone without 6 A's recently.

The important thing to look at on the league tables is whether the low, middle and high attainers all make expected or better progress.

Yes, I know what you mean mmmdonuts, but that is not the same as saying the courses are asking for those grades - students getting onto that course are likely to have good predictions, good AS, good statements and references anyway. Some courses weight GCSEs heavily, some don't - again you can verify this.

There are universities that you just won't get a look in at without good GCSEs......

I've just looked at the two secondary schools within a mile or so of my home.

One has the better A-C inc. Eng and Maths (61%) with 93% for high attrainers and 2% for low attainers.

The other has a lower A-C inc. Eng and Maths (53%) but this is 95% for high a trainers and 4% for low attainers.

Which is the best school? Personally I think that the numbers only tell part of the story.

They look much of a muchness to me- the differences could be one child. Go for the one you like the look of.

I would look at whether the FSM children made expected progress- I think that says a lot about a school.

Universities put their minimum requirements on their websites - but you'd have to look hard to find anyone they make an offer to with the minimum at some universities.

The more you get into their admission statistics - which you can do through their websites - the more you see that places like Bristol and Durham have 99% of their students gaining handfuls of A* grades. And in some talks at some places ( having done the UCAS round 3 times now) they are quite clear that you need those higher grades, no matter what they say on their website. It's a competitive environment and you have To overachieve the minimum to get in.

Absolutely, Beck and Call. All I meant is that there is variation within the sector and people should not be put off if they don't have 5A, if otherwise they are good candidates - I have not seena nything to suggest such a hard and fast rule. Many people at the most competitive universities on the most competitive courses may well also play music to a high standard - that doesn't mean necessarily it is what got them in. Can you provide a link to the 99% getting "handfuls" of A statistic at Bristol and Durham please?

Thanks laisy pretty much what I was trying to say, but you put it far more succinctly.
What it does seem to be difficult to find out though, is if even if DC had a respectable number of A/A*, what if Eng and/or Maths is only B or C? Is that an automatic no-no for many Unis?

The school DD1 just left (average comp, affluent area) generally gets between 60 and 70% 5A* to C with E&M.
Usually a handful that get straight A, but 2013 cohort had none, although highest results for school overall. Could be due to mire concentration on C/D borderline cases, more emphasis on E&M to get league table figures up, less A overall due to grade boundaries, or just that cohort - take your pick.
School she has just started at for 6th form, (also a comp, in same LA but less affluent area, religious attendance based yr7 entry criteria), gets around 85% 5AtoC with E&M. Also gets 60% Ato B for A level, but thats more selective.

Universities put out their minimum requirements.

However, if the institution is highly selective and the course competitive, minimum requirements are unlikely to pass muster.

I work at one university where you won't get a sniff without a really decent raft of GCSEs. The results are contextualised, but for a leafy comp, that won't mean a fat lot.

And I recall a MNer saying that Bristol were very open about their lack of interest in AS results at their open day.

In fact with the proposed changes in how A levels will work, GCSE grades are likely to become more important to university applications (except perhaps for those applying post A level results).

That said, there were a lot of places in clearing this year. Including really popular courses at highly regarded universities.

No doubt that are certain Unis and courses that are definitely out of the question without a high number of A* GCSE. It's just a matter of finding put which ones they are to avoid wasted choices.

But there are certainly RG Unis that are accepting below what would be expected. Friends DD (selective independent school) just gone off to start competitive course at an RG Uni. Had 3A*, 3A and 4B at GCSE. Her offer was AAB, which she missed by a couple of grades but still kept place. And she also had an ABB insurance offer at another RG Uni. Not sure how much the county level sport and gold DofE would have helped.

Succinct is rare for me, circular . I don't know about that qn.

Wordfactory, yes ( I didn't say minimum requirements will be enough, I do agree that we are talking about very competitive universities), just that there is variation and the picture is more complicated that "you need 6 A*" when you are talking about hundreds of courses at different institutions. Other universities have said they look hard at AS and less at GCSEs. My dd is applying for joint honours and we had different takes from the different departments. Absolutely about clearing - will that happen again do you think?

That's interesting about the changes to A levels affecting the importance of GCSEs - - great, more pressure for 14/15 year olds!

Most university courses only ask for a minimum number of GCSE passes. Yes I work in universities too & ask nosy questions about our admissions.

It's all very well talking about "competitive" courses but by definition the vast majority of GCSE takers will not go on to even try to apply for any of those courses.

There's never any thought for ordinary people in these threads.

lljkk this thread isn't about the general student body though, is it?

The OP asked about remarkable GCSEs and what that would be. She also pointed out that her DS is highly able, though has a SEN.

Why would a question about able students and what they are likely to attain/need to attain need to cover the students for who that won't be relevant?

laisy, sorry but I can only find Oxford and Cambridge right now - and they are on my printed handouts from the schools careers office. For Durham, their websites for the individual departments say 'good grades' for their GSCE requirements ( so open to interpretation) and Bristol are very generic on their website. Again, the information I have is from their actual talks in their departments ( having sat through 3 different subjects at 5 different universities for each of my DC I've done it a lot!).

I have found Bristol and Durham to be more explicit than, say, Southampton and Brimingham. Part of the difference that students at Bristol and Durham have from Southampton or Birmingham is that for a fair few of them Oxbridge was their first choice uni - so they will on average have many A* at GCSE - whether they need them or not for where they actual end up. So it's a bit of a self fulfilling statistic.

What you need to do for your own DC is to look at the subject specific information for the unis they are interested in - after all, what does it matter what Bristol want if your child is interested in Manchester?

It's fair to say that the vast majority of (English) Oxbridge applicants will have bucketloads of A GCSEs. However that is NOT the same as saying you need to have bucketloads of A GCSEs to be offered a place.

What you undoubtedly need are predictions that meet their usual entry criteria - which would normally be A+ at A level, and a good explanation of why your GCSE grades are lower than that which would be expected of an applicant predicted A+. A decent explanation on the PS (illness, home educated etc) would mitigate against lower than normal GCSEs.

Hmm.

DS has been persuaded by his school to have a shot at an Oxbridge application despite only (!) 4A* and 4A at GCSE. Wonder what mitigating circs they might accept?

He does have SEN with a full-time statement, and spent most of his formative years under the piano or hiding in the cloakroom. I'm just not sure if mentioning that would really work in his favour...

Sadly, I think every GCSE thread on MN is about remarkable - exceptional - competitive.
And thread ignores the fact that kids aren't robots; just because they leave primary well above average doesn't mean they should leave secondary in that position. For all kinds of reasons nothing to do with teaching or true potential.