Would you send your child to a grammar school ?

[HeGrewWhiskersOnHisChin]

This is going to be quite long and rambling but I wanted to find out how much of my own experiences are clouding my judgement.

Okay, where we live there are not any great schools unless you are in the correct feeder schools, which we aren't as we moved to the area after Reception.

I know people say that all the time, but it's true - I'm not a snob I promise!

There are a few grammar schools within a commutable distance, and after researching all the local schools, look like the best choice.

I say choice as they are not necessarily an option for us. DD is bright, on the top table (apparently), but as I said already we live in a really deprived area. Half the children don't even wear the uniform let alone turn up for school. If she were at a better performing school she might be more average, I don't know.

So anyway I was going to do a practice verbal and non-verbal reasoning test with her just to see if she had any natural aptitude or not, and then consider whether we should try for a grammar or not.

BUT... She doesn't want to go to a school like that, she wants to go to one with normal people.

Oh the irony! Her words are exactly I said to my very working class parents and my head teacher after turning down a place at a grammar school. My dad was angry but my mum let me make my own mind up.

Subsequently I went on to a 'normal' school and academically I achieved as well as I would have at the grammar, but but but I can't help thinking that if I'd have mixed with girls from the other school, I may have not ended up pregnant at 18 living in a council flat !

I know my DD is very easily led, even more so than me (she gets it from her dad's side) and I think when she goes to secondary school she'll be more interested in boys and makeup than getting As.

So what should I do?

I said it'd be long!

Sit the exam, then decide. I went to a grammar school, and always wanted the same education for my children. After looking around i was amazed how great a lot of the comps where. We ended up in the opinion that after the test we could decide with a bit of insite what was best for them. My daughter chose a girls grammar and although being from one of the most normal ( not wealthy) family's is very happy. My son sits his 11 plus soon and again it just adds another choice. good luck.

Reading OP again I would try for the grammar school-it sounds as if you haven't got great comprehensives. There is no harm in just trying-and then, as Dogwalks says, decide if you have a choice.

OP, it is all up to you, the make up and boys thing too. Personally I do not think make up is a big bad thing. The "boys" thing does not lead to pregnancy if you are open about sex, explain about condoms, let her start the pill when she wants ( being on it does mot lead to wild behaviour, in my school lots of 15-16 yr olds went on the pill, me included). Saying that, I am Scandinavian, and am often puzzled by attitudes to sex here in my beloved new home country.. But anyway, talking about it helps ( not just the once, and not just about the biological side, but discuss the emotional side, discuss being pressurised, discuss porn, discuss LIFE.

As to schools, try for the grammar and decide after you are offered a place.

To lequeen, I live in an area of amazing comps, closest one gets 95% 5 A-C and 90% A-C maths and English. There is an atmosphere of it being cool to do well.

Don't know if this kind of school is really rare though, other comps around here seem very good too.

The state schools here all do sets, the sets are within bands, the top band would be like grammar school I presume, so not such a big difference.

I would also discuss your DD and friends' attitude about "normal" schools. IMO it is silly to allow a child to limit her own chances for the future through inverse snobbery.

Inverse? Reverse? Ahem, my English letting me down

But Exotic, it is quite common not to set, even in good comprehensives. I'm not saying I like it, but there are lots of reasons why schools or departments choose not to. Mostly to do with timetabling or usually that they actually think mixed ability works better - as my current department does, unfortunately.

Oh and inevitably, if you have not that many kids choosing a particular subject at GCSE, you only have enough for one class, so no setting. I recently taught a GCSE language class which had everything from potential Oxbridge candidates to lids who still had major literacy problems in their own language. Impossible!

Holmes, why do you think not setting is bad? I am not sure it is great as setting stops late developers from going to the higher sets, ie they will always have lower expectations if set in a low set at age 11.

Parents of top set kids usually like setting (90% of MNers ;) ) , parents of lower set kids not so much , IME

Cross post where you explain it

Oh and inevitably, if you have not that many kids choosing a particular subject at GCSE, you only have enough for one class, so no setting. I recently taught a GCSE language class which had everything from potential Oxbridge candidates to lids who still had major literacy problems in their own language. Impossible!

SOunds like my dd's GCSE French set - worked out ok, but the teacher was quite good. As you say, GCSE options can't always be set, but most comprehensives set for most subjects most of the time.

I expect it depends on the size of the comprehensive and the area. When I think of the fuss kicked up at my child's school about one particular French teacher, who was thought inadequate for GCSE level, I really can't image the fuss that would have been made if they tried to teach those who intended to do French at university with those who had poor English skills!
Comprehensives need a very large top end, they can't risk losing the parents who would take their child away to educate privately.

we have an excellent grammar here, plus 2 very good high schools

when DS2 was in Y5/6 he said he absolutely didn't want to go to the grammar, I think from talking to his friends; but that was before open evenings, & after going to those, he changed his mind

but the open evenings were in the autumn term of Y6, & the grammar entrance exam (not 11+ as such, just one full morning of tests sat at the school) was in the spring term. I don't know how the timings work where you are, OP? But anyway, at the beginning of Y5 there's plenty of time for you to nibble away at her resistance

Good luck :-)

I wouldn't send my kids to this grammar school...

I don't know how the timings work where you are, OP?
The few remaining GSs in my county all do their 11+ next Saturday. I think many other areas have likewise moved their exams forward into sept of yr6 so the results are known before you have to make the admissions choices. So the open evenings are in summer term aimed at yr5s.

I went to an all girls grammar in Bucks and hated it with such deadly loathing that I made a choice to move to a non grammar county so my kids could go to a comp. I know that times have changed, and we are different people, but DD is so much more confident, poised and together than I was at her age. The grammar school shattered my self confidence, and DD has done nothing but blossom.

BOF - I'd probably look more deeply into a school than to dismiss it in its entirety due to a single, random, off the cuff remark possibly made by a nervous man in the name of misplaced jocularity, actually.

"BOF - I'd probably look more deeply into a school than to dismiss it in its entirety due to a single, random, off the cuff remark possibly made by a nervous man in the name of misplaced jocularity, actually."

I would not want my child at a school where a) the head teacher was nervous addressing a meeting of prospective parents, and b) where there was a culture suggesting it was acceptable for men to make Terry and June type golf club "jokes" about women.

My point is about my DD not everyone else's.

I always said I would never worry about the type of school as if my child is bright she'll do well anywhere.

But as MY DD has got older I'm realising that we are losing her to her friends. She is turning into something that I don't like and I believe going to secondary school with these same type of friends means she will get even worse.

I'm worried about her and as I can't afford private I wondered if grammar was our best option.

I achieved 9As/A*s at a comprehensive, but my daughter is a different person and I honestly don't believe she'll carry on working hard. Yes I'm being defeatist, no I haven't shared my feelings about her with her, I'm just considering our options.

I understand your fears, HeGrewWhiskersOnHisChin. Grammar school might help, it might not. Sometimes, some children have to go through years of behaving in ways that make their parents feel sad/deeply disapprove of, whatever school they are sent to. If their parents are nevertheless consistent and provide a stable background, those children normally end up back on the right track. They may have made their lives more complicated in the meantime, but sometimes, some people have to learn from their own mistakes, not the mistakes or achievements of their parents. Why not keep looking into the option of grammar school and what your dd's chances of getting in might be, anyway (bearing in mind that trying and failing to get in might make her even more anti-academic achievement as a result!), find out more about the alternatives, too, and at the end of the day, know that you have to be philosophical about what happens and deal with the consequences when they arise, rather than panic about the future.

curlew - and I wouldn't assume that a single, one off, off-beat remark made by the Head, unless it was among many others indicated that he was definitely 'nervous around parents; and that one 'Terry & June' remark indicated a school suffused in such thinking.

This is why one needs to do loads of research, speak to existing parents and pupils if possible, sit outside at chucking outside etc, get the feel of a place; not base your child's possible education future on an OFSTED and a badly made speech.

FWIW one Head ours had in juniors visibly disliked having to talk to a hall full of parents. He stuttered, failed to make eye contact, rushed through what he had to say; however in front of the entire school in assembly, he was completely in control; eloquent, articulate, commanding. He knew all the DC by name and all the DC loved him and the school's results rise noticeably under his headship.

Had I had to make my decision based on one prospective parents talk, I wouldn't have sent my DC there.

Anyway, we digress. Back to the OP!

The reason I'm sending my daughter to a grammar school is that I think and hope that she will be happier. That's all.

I was an academic child. Top of the year group in every single exam I ever took.

I went to a decent but not exceptional comprehensive and did very well, couldn't have done better. 10As, 4As and an Oxford 1st (and a Ivy League PhD later). This was in the days when there were no A* and far fewer students got As.

But it wasn't much fun.

I was shy with it, and while I didn't experience any real bullying and had some friends, I had zero sense of belonging and have almost no good memories. I was looked down on for being clever and just didn't fit.

I know my daughter isn't me, and the comprehensive school here is probably a bit nicer than the one I went to, but she's not that different from me either. It wasn't an easy decision, but my gut feeling was that she'd be happier at the grammar school.

I feel a bit selfish because it's not good for comprehensive schools for the most able pupils to go elsewhere, but so be it.

(on a different point: we didn't use a tutor, she did some practice tests as you'd be daft not to, but only 2-3 weeks before the test)

My point is about my DD not everyone else's.

absolutely... your DD and the schools available to her. From everything you've said, considering GS is entirely sensible.

However, 'I'm realising that we are losing her to her friends' - well, up to a point; peer pressure does become more important, but that doesn't mean you have to lose her to her friends or lose your influence over her. She's 9 - you still have a say in what she does out of school. Could maybe think of ways to broaden her horizons? Is there some activity she might be interested in which would expand her social group - it might be something she did just with other kids or something you could do too.

I have no problem with grammar schools if it is right for the child.
l have two dd's, both of them are very academic. However, i think that one of my dd's would thrive in a grammar school while the other would thrive in the fantastic Catholic school with good pastoral care.
I expect both of my dds to achieve excellent grades
I think some parents are so obsessed with getting their kids into a grammar school, that they almost ignore the fact that it may not be right for their child. The sad thing is that ultimately it is the child that suffers.