Is it usual to need a grade A GCSE to do A level maths now?

[Jella2u]

Disappointment here too. Son has got 10 GCSE's grade A-C. So what's the prob? You have no prob! Yes I do!!!
He got a grade B, yes that's right, B for Bertie for Maths. The school (which is a comprehensive turned Academy ) will let him do his Physics, Chemistry and Biology, but not Maths for which they say a Grade A is required unless you've clocked up a total of 224 points between the last 2 module papers. Unfortunately his tally was 205. Husband went up suited and booted to the school this morning to plead son's case. Phoned us this afternoon - no go. Have said this to all who got a B. So nothing personal there.
Have tried to contact other schools this afternoon. Needless to say all are shut. Local Authority very helpful and recommended emailing. Are schools running a clearing system that I don't know about? Do tell.
School did offer Statistics as a replacement this morning, but by this afternoon that was off the menu as no-one wants to do it. There are 7 pupils in this maths grade B situation who want to do A level Maths. Strangely the school says Chemistry, Physics, Biology and Maths are the most difficult subjects. So they might be for most people, but what if your child is the one that has had to struggle with French, Music, English Language and bid their time to do the supposed hard four?
We feel he needs A level maths to support science subjects.
Unfortunately, I said we would be back with an answer as to taking up a place with some sort of substitute for Maths before term starts. Every chance if I can't get something sorted fast he will be a well educated NEET!!!
All ideas welcome. Thanks in advance.

I'm beginning to think this thread is a wind-up!

Jella, why don't you write to a publisher or Michael Gove and ask to be made an adviser?

A school textbook is not intended to be a self-study guide. It is intended to be a tool which a teacher can use to make his/her life a bit easier - in the case of maths it saves having to devise thousands of repetitive exercises and examples. It is still the teacher's role to teach - a role which you have now assumed in the case of your ds. It is, therefore, your job to come up with the tips and explanations.

CGP specialise in self-study and revision guides, which is why their books are addressed directly to the student and are full of mnemonics, etc.

From what you have said, he is struggling with some of the algebra at the beginning of C1, doesn't that suggest something to you?
When he did badly at school you blamed the school, when he is having problems now you are blaming the book. Who will you blame next?
A maths textbook is there to give a few examples to remind students but it is to supplement the teacher and then to provide lots of questions. All questions in an exercise will be related but different, you cannot give an example of every type. A student should be able to apply their knowledge from more than one topic in a question.

The OP appears to think that a textbook should have the scope of a distance-learning course. AS+A2 maths would be delivered over around 400 hours. I did an OU foundation course a few years ago which was sized at about 400 hours and the teaching material was four large books, four DVDs and a sizeable amount of online material. A Level maths textbooks, not so much. They're not meant for self-instruction, they're meant as an adjunct to a properly designed and structures course of instruction. Presumably, as a maths genius, the OP is perfectly able to construct such a course for her high-flying son.

He's not just struggling with algebra which is actually quite difficult for most people, he doesn't seem to understand fractions very well. I think pushing him towards a maths-based degree course would be at best very unkind and at worst really damage his self-esteem and idea of himself as a person who can succeed at hard stuff. OP, what subjects did your son get A or A* in?

Oh dear.
Seem to have upset the naysayers again.
They'll find a new target soon.
Determined to blame the student.
Determined to blame the parent.
Strange, very strange.

I think you're the only upset one - upset with the teachers, upset with the textbook!

Just want to point out that you can make sociology very statistical if you want to...

I'm not a naysayer. I'm sure you can push your son through A Level Maths if you really want to (though I'm not sure how well he will do). I do however think that perhaps he might be happier if he played to his strengths and aimed towards something that he can really excel in. Or at least enjoy doing. Most people don't enjoy doing things that they aren't very good at.

I'm not a nay-sayer either, nor the least bit upset, just trying to explain that he doesn't sound ready at the moment for being pushed through A-level, and needs to consolidate a lot of more basic GCSE work first. It's only sensible. It's not something the school could provide, but since you're doing it one to one, you might well take that opportunity. But why not actually do that, instead of blaming books/teachers etc? Why not accept that if he is learning maths by rules and mnemonics, he doesnt' really understand the basics of some topics, and should go back and learn them properly first? He would have a much better chance of doing well at A-level then.

Jella, I think a lot of parents support you because we need to be tough and continue going when the going gets tougher. However the method you use to teach him by rules has the same problem as the earlier teaching you consider poor. You need to teach him how to think.

What Picklefish, Harum, Marco and Noblegiraffe said above is really worth your attention:

I agree with learning rules being problematic. .. Trying to make that into something to remember is actually making it harder. Noble

if he is learning maths by rules and mnemonics, he doesnt' really understand the basics of some topics, and should go back and learn them properly first? Harum

He's not just struggling with algebra which is actually quite difficult for most people, he doesn't seem to understand fractions very well. harum

A student should be able to apply their knowledge from more than one topic in a question. Marcopront

" However the method you use to teach him by rules has the same problem as the earlier teaching you consider poor. "

My elder's just got 97% UMS at AS, having done similarly at GCSE and FSQM. She's not particularly interested in the subject and isn't taking it forward to A2. However, she's clearly good enough to do extremely well at this level. She reports that her class was filled with people who demanded of the teacher short cuts, rules, mnemonics and methods for question spotting, because they either didn't want to or couldn't actually get to the point of understanding. Their results were mediocre.

The OP will find the same problem: you simply cannot do well in AS maths (and arguably you can't at GCSE) today by treating it mechanistically. You could a generation ago: I'm pretty sure that my A Level in the early eighties was done in large part by rote. But today the questions are wider-ranging and require synthesis of topics from across the syllabus in order to secure the marks that distinguish the higher grades. Without understanding, you're not going to better than a middling grade. And a candidate who wants mnemonics, short cuts and a reminded to press the shift key on their calculator is going to struggle with that.

I don't think what most posters are saying, OP, is "oooh no, maths A-level, can't be done, forlorn hope".

What they are saying is that if it is to work at this level your ds needs to able to think more independently and work out what to do rather than just do what you tell him.

At the moment you are still looking for solutions which mean you or the textbook writer will do most of the thinking and then present it to him in a neat packet. Just like you make his telephone calls for him and speak to the tutors on his behalf.

If he is not ready for this level yet, then going back and consolidating the basics does seem like a good idea.

Exactly Cory. I think by the time kids get to sixth form it's really down to them. Yes, they could perhaps get better grades if their parents help them - especially to the extent the OP proposes. But what good does that really do them in the long run? If it gets them onto a course or into a job they want but can't cope with because they've never learnt to study independently and manage their own lives?

I'm all for discussing with my kids what they are doing at school, offering advice when asked or lending a sympathetic ear. But the sixth form is all about developing independent learning; not being spoon fed by mum.

If you want him to learn at home, why aren't you getting a Maths Tutor? The reason the book isn't 'thick' enough is because it isn't a self-study guide. You may be brilliant at Maths but if you're not a teacher then you're not necessarily going to be very good at teaching...

I agree with everything cory said in that post.

I'm the last person who would put a limit on anybody's maths. I found my love of maths once I'd left school after years of thinking I was rubbish at it. Teaching maths is one of the things I miss most about teaching and I firmly believe that children hear too many messages about 'having a maths limit' and it being OK to not be very good at maths that they don't hear about other subjects. I've already disagreed on this thread with people who've said that.

The problem is not 'can he do maths A level', it's whether or not he can do it in 2 years, whilst studying 4 other subjects from the starting point he's at now. Nothing in your post about the textbook has changed my opinion that this may be too big an ask. In fact, it suggests he has bigger problems with maths than I imagined he might.

You may do better for your son if you listen to the advice of some of the 'naysayers' like noblegiraffe, rather than ignoring them because they don't agree with you.

I was wondering why this thread sparks such emotion and it crossed my mind that the expectations that Jella forcefully articulates are totally normal.

Two uni educated parents see their reasonably able DS to school and expect him back with grades that would allow him to continue education, go to uni for a career of his choice, just like they and their elder DSs did in their times. Suddenly they realize that something changed and to stay on this track they need a PhD in pushy parenting, to know all the tricks of the system, the skills to teach DS Maths or to afford tutoring. I understand why Jella is shocked and upset.

Jella, if your ds is finding some gaps in his knowledge for C1, there is a book called Bridging GCSE and A Level Maths which goes through topics refreshing what should be known from GCSE and the first steps to AS. It is very well laid out.

I'm not sure it changed that much. Some children will always have to put in more effort to get the same grades in a subject than others do. Those subjects will be different for different chikdren. having university educated parents just means you have better resources behind you to help you put that effort in.

His4mum, you don't think the scenario might be slightly different?

Something like: two university educated parents who have a gift for a certain subject and have conducted their own studies with the usual level of independence expect their son to be exactly like them. And when he is not, they panic and start blaming everybody around them.

What many of us do find hard to understand is that the only talk here is of the kind of pushy parent you have to be. What about the kind of student? The son is 16. Nearly grown up. And yet there is no talk of him organising his studies or discussing matters with prospective colleges. He may need tutoring in particular areas, but he really shouldn't need somebody to be making his college appointments for him and thinking through his study plan.

Surely it doesn't take an in depth knowledge of "the tricks of the system" for a big lad to have talked to his school and surrounding colleges well in advance of exams about what kind of demands the maths A-level is going to pose and to have acquired a collection of study guides long before this stage?

I may seem to be harping on this, but then I am a university lecturer and I do see how desperately students flounder if they arrive at university without basic experience in sorting out their workload and making practical arrangements.

I am also university educated. And I don't think that means both my children will be able to go to university as a matter of course: if they do, it will depend on their ability and their commitment and their hard work.

Cory, you might be right, there are so many scenarios. We don't really know all the circumstances and I don't think OP ever revealed her DS's grades in other subjects. Obviously with the same teaching some other DC did better in her son's school. I understand where you and other professionals come from.

All I said was that I understand why OP is upset.
The picture your paint is exactly the one that made me think the OPs DS needs help. But then this is only my personal perspective shaped by my experience of having DC with SEN. There are many reasons why things don't work out as expected. Young people mature at different pace and learn to cope via different pathways. I see secondary education as the time to give DS every opportunity to develop and flourish in a protective environment if needed. As a parent I can't accept that any DC should be left behind and I wouldn't demand that from any mother. It is one thing to argue generally that DC will succeed on their own, its another to stare in the face of a possibility that your DC will not follow you in higher education and perceive that he will never have the same, let alone better standard of living. It is upsetting and Jella is fighting back. Ultimately people make choices which reflect their values.
[I am not entering the discussion about how rewarding non university careers are, this is for another thread]

I am surprised that this thread has rumbled on for so long.
My DS3 was in the same position, he got a B at GCSE and decided to take it at AS level. He was completely out of his depth in the very first lesson where apparently they just did 'a bit if a warm up' and discussed the syllabus. He saw the teacher afterwards, who was supportive but realistic, he came back and discussed it with us and decided to change subjects.
DS1 had an A at GCSE and he got an A at A'level and did a Science subject at university. He didn't struggle. I wouldn't have seen the point in telling DS3 that he must do it, have tutors, workbooks etc or say that the school had let him down. He was at the same school as his brother.
He was the one to make the decision . I agree with longingforsomesleep.
Her DS is the one to do it, not her DS heavily backed by mum. Mum won't be at university with him- best to learn to cope without her now.

"its another to stare in the face of a possibility that your DC will not follow you in higher education and perceive that he will never have the same, let alone better standard of living."

Hismum4now, the possibility facing the OP is not that her son will have to renounce on every single type of HE, merely that he might have to choose something different from his father and elder brother. Or alternatively, revise his GCSE maths to get them up to scratch.

We're not talking a lifetime in the gutter, just the possibility that he might have to sit down and make active choices rather than simply follow the family tradition.

My ds is a couple of years younger and I would say unlikely to replicate my own academic career. "stare in the fact" makes it sound like he is facing a prison sentence or something. All I thought it meant was that he would have to make his own practical choices for the best possible outcome.

"Ultimately people make choices which reflect their values. "

But surely not for our nearly-adult children?

And before you ask, I have a 16yo who is now leaving school after a disastrous 5 years involving constant bad health and consequent problems with school attendance: her GCSE record looks very different from what we might reasonably have expected from her.

Though she is only just recovering from bad anxiety issues, I still think it is essential that she should conduct her own interviews with college etc and do her own research about possible career options. It is what all her peers are doing and what colleges expect and it is a skill that she needs to practise well in advance of her university interviews.

Admissions officers will be looking for commitment and independence: "I always assumed I'd be doing this because my dad did" really does not cut it on a UCAS application. And admissions tutors are very good at wangling any lack of personal commitment out of students in interview.

There is nothing wrong with the OP's wish to help her son: she sounds a great and caring parent. But some of us are trying to point out that her help might be more effective if done in a slightly different way.

There's no suggestion that the OP's DS has SEN though, is there?

DD1 started 6th form yesterday studying maths and sciences. She is a high A grade student (not an A) but will work very hard. She took her maths at the end of year 10 and during year 11 has been doing algebra etc. at school to bridge the gap to A level. She was shocked at the fast pace of the lessons yesterday (particularly in chemistry). She coped fine but said others were struggling on the first day. She then came home and had over 2 hours homework to do....and that is just on day 1. I do think that a normal 16 year old will struggle to do an extra A level - a couple at DD's school do an extra one but they are straight A students and normally doing further maths.
In Op's situation I do think it is unfortunate that the school won't allow her DS to try maths for a couple of weeks. At DD's school, some are being allowed to do an extra subject just for the first few weeks with a view to dropping one when they have made a decision which one is not for them (assuming their extra subject fits into the 5 option blocks - so effectively the extra lessons are when they would have self-study time).
OP - have you asked school whether this would be a possibility? This way, school and your son could decide whether maths AS level is a reachable goal or whether it is too difficult.