Is it usual to need a grade A GCSE to do A level maths now?

[Jella2u]

Disappointment here too. Son has got 10 GCSE's grade A-C. So what's the prob? You have no prob! Yes I do!!!
He got a grade B, yes that's right, B for Bertie for Maths. The school (which is a comprehensive turned Academy ) will let him do his Physics, Chemistry and Biology, but not Maths for which they say a Grade A is required unless you've clocked up a total of 224 points between the last 2 module papers. Unfortunately his tally was 205. Husband went up suited and booted to the school this morning to plead son's case. Phoned us this afternoon - no go. Have said this to all who got a B. So nothing personal there.
Have tried to contact other schools this afternoon. Needless to say all are shut. Local Authority very helpful and recommended emailing. Are schools running a clearing system that I don't know about? Do tell.
School did offer Statistics as a replacement this morning, but by this afternoon that was off the menu as no-one wants to do it. There are 7 pupils in this maths grade B situation who want to do A level Maths. Strangely the school says Chemistry, Physics, Biology and Maths are the most difficult subjects. So they might be for most people, but what if your child is the one that has had to struggle with French, Music, English Language and bid their time to do the supposed hard four?
We feel he needs A level maths to support science subjects.
Unfortunately, I said we would be back with an answer as to taking up a place with some sort of substitute for Maths before term starts. Every chance if I can't get something sorted fast he will be a well educated NEET!!!
All ideas welcome. Thanks in advance.

Harum - Level 4 at the end of KS2 is OK! Or rather it's 'average'. Just as something like a C at GCSE is OK/average. I don't understand why the OP didn't intervene earlier if her son was just average at maths at the end of KS2. And I don't understand why she blames his secondary school for not turning an average mathematician into a very good one by the end of KS4.

Longing, I think that the OP thinks 2 marks off a level 5 is practically a level 5. Not sure if the secondary teachers would agree with me but because it's an test it can be a bit unreliable around the level boundaries. The difference between a 4 and a 5 is 1 mark. A secure level 4 child having a good day could pick up 2 or 3 marks that take them over the boundary despite not really being a level 5. This get amplified in schools where lots of last minute cramming takes place before the tests.

Unless he had a complete panic on the day of the tests and went to pieces it sounds like he's a secure/high level 4. Would be interesting to see what his Teacher Assessment result was.

Presumably a mid level 4 kid could also have a good day and get a 4a. Given that 25% of kids get a level 4, and the OP's ds scraped a B grade in the hardest paper I too am failing to see evidence of a natural mathematician. 25% of kids are certainly not capable of a decent grade in A Level maths (and certainly not when they're doing 4 other subjects!) and he seems to be just about top 25% but only just....

Sorry 25% get level 5 at KS2!

This thread is a bit bonkers really. There's a gap between parental expectations/beliefs and actual academic ability which is just unbridgeable. I blame GCSEs for being so flipping easy that the essential reality check has not been delivered earlier.

Meanwhile, being not-very-good at Maths isn't necessarily a hindrance, you know! Lots of us peeps who are not-very-good at Maths go on to develop good and worthwhile careers, crucially *in fields that do not require us to be good at Maths". That's the key!

Titchy an Wuldric - I think you are both spot on.

Presumably a mid level 4 kid could also have a good day and get a 4a.

Yes, but the paper itself doesn't give a sublevel only a level. Some schools can divide scores between the boundaries into to thirds to give parents a sub-level but the mark scheme itself doesn't do that. A mid level 4 child scoring a '4a' on a good day will still come out with a level 4.

I don't think that level 5 at KS2 does necessarily mean a child will be capable of getting a good grade at A level. But mentioning the 2 marks of a level 5 seems to be more evidence of the OP's misunderstanding of her child's maths attainment at most stages of his education. Which is why she's blaming the secondary school for lack of progress.

My DD scored a level 5C in the ks2 maths, and a 5A in her last report ( end of year 7).
I hope she will get an A in her GCSE ( or whatever Gove has inflicted by that stage), but realistically she may get a B.
Either way, I would strongly discourage her from taking maths to AS as she doesn't have that instinctive feel for maths that DH, me, and both her brothers have. At A level I want her to take the subjects she enjoys as she is more likely to do well in them.

There is a confusion about engineering degrees, but it's not quite as black and white as BlackMogul suggests.

My son is a chartered engineer, having been through two Russell Group universities and an engineering graduate traineeship. The MEng and BEng have common first years, so people can and do switch between the two. My son ended up with the wrong branch of engineering, (long story and not relevant) so switched from M Eng to B Eng. He worked for a year, and then did a MSc Engineering in the branch that did interest him, followed by a graduate engineering programme. He qualified as a Chartered Engineer in pretty much the same time as others who had done an M Eng.

The problem with A level maths (for him at least) was that the emphasis was on the pure maths as an end in itself whereas as an engineer he needed applied maths. So differentiation, integration etc, as academic excercises for for their own sake or the elegance of the maths didn't cut it, but the aha moment came with the 'here's a problem I need to solve, and calculus is a tool to solve it'. Although in his case the mathematical 'tool' he uses most is finite element analysis.

I see it as a little bit like learning a language:some people want wodges of grammar and to read the literature which could be seen as the 'pure' aspect. Others just want to be able to understand and speak, which is the more 'applied' aspect.

But OP, yes, if your son wants to be an engineer, and mine did from the age of 10, he needs the mathematical background, but not necessarily A level, so self study to keep his maths up would help.

Or he could maybe take the apprentice route, like my brother in law, who left school at 16 with 10 good, though not stellar GCSEs, went to work for a locally based international engineering firm and now earns more than anyone in our extended family - including those with degrees - by some considerable margin and, moreover, loves his job.

Just a thought.

I got a B at GCSE maths, and the very thought of attempting an A-Level makes me shudder. Especially the thought of trying to get a good grade.

Worth a try though - he's not got anything to lose by seeing if things work out.

I think grades at GCSE can often warp natural ability. I got A*s in science, purely because I have a good memory - I am emphatically not a scientist.

All A-Levels are also not created equal. I had to put about 4 times more work into French than I did to the others, despite languages being the subject I found naturally easiest.

Motivation is going to be key here, I think.

Worth a try though - he's not got anything to lose by seeing if things work out.

He's not going to be allowed to try by his school though. Maybe a serious rethink is in order - if he wants to be an engineer is there a suitable BTec he could enrol for instead?

Jella2u

If your son is determined to be an engineer, don't let the nay sayers put him off. Another option could be to do the 3 sciences at school and then take some sort of gap year working, but do A level maths at an FE college or enrol for an OU foundation maths course.

Just picking up on the bit about levels earlier. Looking through my DDs' old reports, maths is the one that went up very quickly through high school. Both had level 5 in year 6 (although DD1 had a lot of help from me for 2/3 years at that stage - not natural ability). Both were on level 6 at end of year 7 and then level 8 at end of year 9. Both took maths at the end of year 10. DD2 always found it easy, DD1 has 'clicked' now and hopefully will do ok at AS.
This is where we need to think about what the gcse in maths is for. Is it to tell employers that anyone with a C and above has a reasonable grasp at maths? - which it probably does. Or is it, as some people think it should be, a lead into AS level? - this it is not! My DDs' school (state) does early entry at the end of year 10 for those in the top 2 sets so that they can spend year 11 doing extension work in algebra etc so that they are prepared for AS level if they wish to continue. Those below set2 do early entry in November of year 11 if they are ready, so they then spend the rest of year 11 with a choice of further algebra, finance or statistics ....or retaking their gcse to obtain a higher grade.
Gove's plans to remove tiers is not going to work. Employers generally are not concerned whether an employee can do differentiation, trig etc (unless the job requires advanced maths skills), but want a good general knowledge with percentages, being able to know whether a calculation looks in the right 'ball park' (approximating before using the calculator) etc. We don't want to end up with a gcse that is too hard and stops pupils entering the job market or entering uni to do a French degree. But we do need something that allows preparation for A levels in maths/sciences too. So more than 1 qualification is probably needed for maths that would then address these problems.
Sorry for the ramble......

hellsbells - I think there were proposals for a double maths qualification and something called 'functional maths' for your day to day stuff. Noblegiraffe can tell you all about it. It seemed pretty sensible, in that it would give those wishing or needing to study maths further a more secure foundation and give others tools for day to day living. Gove doesn't seem to listen to sensible suggestions so I have no idea what happened to it.

But as far as OP's son is concerned engineers do need trig, differentiation etc. - plus, these days, computer programming skills for maths or Computer Aided Design packages. They don't particularly need to know why the maths works or prove that it works though - they just need to know that it does.

LaVolcan - the double maths would make sense!
Totally agree with what you are saying about engineers needing maths - I wasn't trying to muddy the waters!

Although for saying that, my DH would not have passed A level maths and is an engineer. He did it the hard way with an apprenticeship at 16 and worked his way up. He did the maths as and when it was needed and in his industry still has to do courses and exams now. Maths has clicked with him in an 'applied' way.
This is of course another option for Op's son - but he would have to be motivated to follow that sort of career path, and working and studying at the same time.

hellsbells - exactly the same for my son - the maths 'clicked' when applied.

For OPs son, getting a B in maths may actually be a blessing in disguise, if it forces him to look for alternatives. BAE systems, Network Rail, just to name two, are organisations crying out for engineers and have structured programmes.

I hope she comes back and tells us what has been decided.

Think she's already decided Vulcan - he's going to do 4 A levels at school and the 5th at home, get an A in all of them and become an engineer - madness!

Presumably at Christmas when he's realised his other subjects are suffering it'll be because the school isn't teaching him properly, and nothing to do with the fact that he is spending his all study time on the Maths A level and doesn't have enough time for his other subjects....

DS1 was a level 5 at the end of KS2; a level 8 at the end of KS3; achieved an A at the end of year 10 (a year early); a C at AS level and a D at A2.

DS2 was a level 5 at the end of KS2 (teacher assessment 5A); a level 8 at the end of year 9; achieved an A at the start of year 10 (18 months early) and has achieved a C in C1 at the end of year 11.

So both very good at primary and at KS3; good at GCSE, but then it starts to slide .....

I think we all agree that engineers and physicists need maths. I am surprised that his school will let him do physics and chemistry without some more maths. (Bit like being allowed to take History and English if you are rubbish at writing essays.)

OP asked for ideas; we have suggested a few other courses of action which would all lead her son towards the engineering career he wants.

titchy I agree that taking 4 A levels at school and a 5th at home seems madness doesn't seem the best way to go about it. It seems a recipe for total delusion. Still if it led to a rethink and starting again with a BTEC/apprenticeship the following year, not all would be lost.

That's why I hoped she would come back and tell us that they had thought about the alternatives.

I am just wondering if I can be cheeky and ask all these maths experts for some advice!!

My son is about to go into year 10 and is not a natural mathematician! He wants me to help him improve as he really wants to achieve a C in two years.

Can anyone recommend a set of books/revision guides that I can work through with him at home?

Thanks muchly!

If Maths doesn't happen at school it will here.

I like your attitude, OP. Go for it! Three AS-level sciences at school, a fourth AS at school that is not too time-consuming, and maths at home seems doable to me.

AS maths isn't very difficult, compared with the maths that he will most likely need at university for any science or even social science subject. Studying AS level maths at home will be very helpful for the A-level physics.

If he gets AS maths, would he then be able to join the A2 group at school?

Hi somewhere. Noblegiraffe will probably give you the best advice as she is a teacher.
As a parent, I would start by finding out the exam board he will be doing and then ordering the relevant cgp book. I found with DD1 that she needed to do the work 'little and often' and keep repeating if necessary. Work on the basics first.
See if your school provide your DS with a mymaths logon, and then encourage him to do as much as he can on each topic he covers at school.
I also printed off loads of past papers for my DCs but you won't be at that stage yet.

Thanks for that, will find out about the exam board, at the options evening they told me he is borderline for higher and foundation paper and a decision would be made this year about his best chance for a C, but hopefully they are the same exam board.

I think you are right and i will start with the basics and build on that. He does have a mymaths logon, so will encourage him to do a little on that often! I don't want to turn into a nag, but do want him to get a C!!!