Are grammar schools better for above average children?

[celticclan]

I'm talking about your bog standard Grammar in somewhere such as Bucks not Kent (not super-selective schools). Are they better for the top 30% than comprehensive schools? In what way?

I'm personally not keen on the Grammar school system but lots of people are and I'm interested to find out why.

Seeker isn't even here now. I don't think it;s fair talking about her Or her DS anymore.

but what about all the kids who do not have parents as motivated as her (and siblings at the Grammar school)

if you lived in Deal, would you really be happy with Walmer?
or in Ramsgate at Marlowe?
or in Swanscombe at Swan Valley (which has the lowest Value Added in the county to boot)

Russians, I did not realise she'd decamped. no worries

Why are the Schools you have described so awful? The Marlowe academy must be one of the worst Schools in the country. I dont think the MARLOWE ACADEMY would be any better even if there were no Grammar Schools within Kent. The problem with Schools like the MARLOWE ACADEMY, are related more to the problems in places like Ramsgate and the problems of deprivation and low aspiration. These in places like Ramsgate and Hull and in a lot of these coastal towns there is no north/south divide just deprivation in equal measures. I do not think its CLARENDON HOUSE GRAMMAR or other Grammar Schools in the near locality that causes the problems that face the MARLOWE ACADEMY or other Schools you have mentioned.

beatback
Looking at the results of Clarendon and Chatham
www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=136382
www.education.gov.uk/cgi-bin/schools/performance/school.pl?urn=136385
it is clear that Marlowe does not stand a chance because it combines low local opportunities with 11+ failure.
At least if all the kids in Thanet were given the same opportunities (I know East Kent pretty well BTW), those that currently get dumped into Marlowe might have a chance.
But Thanet is an oddity.

How do you explain Swanscome? : in an area with excellent rail links to Canary Wharf etc and easy access to the Motorway network and better opportunities

Oh no, what's happened to Seeker? Thought it a bit strange that she hadn't chipped in to this thread.

I dunno. But it's sad. She is much missed, by me anyway, even though we rarely agreed.

TALKINPEACE. Ive just looked at SWAN VALLEY School is that SWANSCOME? 24% 5 A TO C Maths and English 22.9% F.S.M so high but the School is going in the wrong direction 2010/2011 it had 34/35% 5 A TO C respectively. Maybe the School could do with a new head or perhaps trying to specalize in perhaps a sports college and try to establish relationships with local football and other sport clubs and maybe that could encourage parents with middle abilty DCs to apply there.

Try to specalize in becoming a sports college. My grade E G.C.S.E English Grammar letting me down SORRY.

It was 1988 so with "Grade Inflation" i can say with some belief it would be an A* Today HA HA HA.

Secondary schools achieve excellent results with great teaching staff! Very well equipped with high standards expected of both pupils and staff.

beatback
there are no specialist schools any more other than just in name : there has been no money for specialisms for a couple of years
and actually becoming a sports college will drive the academic even further away

1988 GCSE : youngster

Talkinpeace. So the new fad is Academy status god knows in 3 years Acadamy status will be where specialism is now. 1988 I was in the first year to take G.C.S.Es and I had to take them at a college because my school would not let me take any. That was how bad Education was then if you had special needs. But enough of me moaning!

Academies - at least Gove style - have a lot more to do with breaking the power of LEAs than anything to do with education.

Talkinpeace. It could be that SWAN VALLEY School is suffering because two local Schools LEIGH TECHNOLOGY and DARTFORD SCIENCE COLLEGE. where Leigh Technology College/ Dartford Science 61/52% 5 A TO C Maths and English respectively.

absolutely : its a secondary modern - it IS one of the sink schools you referred to up thread and "parental choice" reinforces that vicious spiral every year

Talkinpeace. One of the main problems for SWAN VALLEY and other Schools like them is even by changing their names people will always remember how bad they were 20 or 30 years ago, and no matter what they do the stigma will always remain the same. Another problem for SWAN VALLEY in particular is that the kids who dont pass For/choose WILLMINGTON/DARTFORD GRAMMAR will have SWAN VALLEY as 3rd choice so the aspriational parents will choose LEIGH/ DARTFORD SCIENCE COLLEGE meaning that the only kids SWAN VALLEY can attract are kids from families who dont value education or parents that have had negative experiences from their own education. One way schools like SWAN VALLEY could improve their image is being very strong on Uniform and behaviour outside the school, because one thing i have learnt in life is you become like your surrondings and if the kids go to school thinking there going to a dump and whats the point of even looking half smart the standards will always drop. If pupils entering schools like SWAN VALLEY could believe that their were not entering a dump in their own minds that surely would be a positive start. If OFSTED could set realistic targets for these Schools in SWAN VALLEY"s case maybe 30% 5 A TOC Maths English and not expect them to straight away get 50% plus. It is very sad that the perception in the uk that if the School was a sports College the academic side would be poor and this is only the case in the state sector, because all the best public schools set great store in their sporting achievements and were massively over repersented in the medals at the Olympics and the State Schools that did have ex pupils who won medals were not the SWAN VALLEY"s. Another way things could be improved is if philanthropists started building schools not for their own egos like "LORD HARRIS CARPETRIGHT" REG VARDY JUST SO HE CAN PREACH CREATIONISM" but because their wanted to put back some of their wealth in to society and not to ask anything for it other than for the common good. One of the U.Ks greatest philantropists was WILLIAM MORRIS founder of Morris Cars who though his lifetime gave away over £30 million pounds the equivalent to over £1 BILLION POUNDS TODAY ,and created amonst many things the NUFFIELD FOUNDATION. He was not looking for an ego boost just to make things better for the common good.

And then after the philantropists have built the schools let the professionals run them the correct way not in the ego centric way of themselves.

ON a current thread about HARRIS ACADEMIES it says despite having a cohort not dissimilar from the Dover Grammar Schools achieves average results so perhaps the professionals should be allowed to put that right without the ego of the "OWNER OF THE SCHOOL" .

Beatback
How well do you know Dover? I very much doubt that Harris would be able to work their magic there. Especially with the kids split between different schools.

I dont know Dover other than looking at statistics and i was actually saying that the harris academy is only producing average results with an above average cohort so were actually not doing very well.

Harris area bit like Marmite .... as is Dover

yes definitely

I have been on the ferry quite a few times though and its a lot faster than the crossing from ramsgate but not as quick as the tunnel from folkestone. HA HA HA.