There's a "culture of low expectation" in secondary schools. Do you agree?

[HelenMumsnet]

Hello. You may have seen/heard on the news today that Ofsted is warning that thousands of bright secondary-school-age children are being "systematically failed" at school.

And we'd like to know what you think about this.

Ofsted says there is a culture of low expectations in England's non-selective secondaries - meaning that, according to a new Ofsted report, more than a quarter (27%) of pupils who achieved the highest results in primary school fail to achieve at least a B grade in both their English and their Maths GCSE.

The most academically able, says Ofsted chief inspector Sir Michael Wilshaw, arrive "bright-eyed and bushy-tailed" from primary school, but things start "to go wrong very early. They tread water. They mark time. They do stuff they've already done in primary school. They find work too easy and they are not being sufficiently challenged."

Do you think this is a fair reflection of life at secondary school? Do you think your child's secondary school has a low expectation of its pupils/your child? Does/did your child "tread water" in Year 7? Do you wish secondary schools did more to challenge their more academically able pupils?

Please do tell!

pickled
apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/PrintReport.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=327805&ReportType=COLOUR
looks like a large tad irrelevant to me

lets stick to getting Gove to be emprical and statistically valid shall we

Actually I exaggerated a bit - one lunchtime a week is a club.

Also I'm not there all other lunchtimes as I'm part time, but when I am "in" my lunchtime always gets used for something. Often helping A level students who want more personal help - and then the run up to the Jan exams was revision, and the run up to GCSEs was revision and target groups etc.

My 2 ds both achieved a level 5 in primary. One of them managed a B in something, the rest were all c's for both of them.
They both went to rubbish schools, weren't challenged and neither reached their full academic potential. Ds2 was particularly bright, and i feel he was failed more than ds2.

DD 9 doesn't go to school and unless she really wants to won't go to secondary.

Talkinpeeace, my post was in response to Hullygully's Thu 13-Jun-13 22:10:54

Who died and made you moderator?

I think schools should teach literacy and numeracy to a level necessary to be a fully functioning member of society.

A chronological history of the world so we understand our past and can give proper thought to the future (and not a drab recitation of kings and queens, but movements and ideas and revolutions, to include political and religious and social areas).

Economic theories and the application of.

How finance works

How government works

How to function in the world: how to have a bank account/ use an airport etc etc etc

And alongside those that want to specialise academically do so, and those that want to take practical subjects do so.

But then you might get literate, politically engaged, financially aware voters and that would never do.

So in short thousands of children are being failed, but not for the stupid reasons Gove gives.

Even better, Gove's plans will probably fail more of them since he seems to pluck them from his arse on a whim rather than anything else.

What about understanding how your body works, a healthy diet etc Hully? Your list is a bit light on science.

Yy those too

And computers

A history of scientific development and thought. String theory. V keen on string theory.

Healthy diet and how your body works? Bloody hell, they do enough on that already, quite frankly: I'd like to see some PSHCE that's more focussed on calming the hell down and not giving your parents the catsbum mouth when they have a glass of wine, to be honest!

but Hullly, surely the kids who don't give a toss - still won't give a toss.

We did some of that kind of stuff at the scary, hard as nails comp I had the pleasure of 5 character forming years at & the kids who did fuck all in all the other lessons, did fuck all in the "how to write a cheque" lesson, the "components of a basic meal" and "how to vote in an election" lesson too!

They didn't want to be there, didn't care about what exam results they got & couldn't wait to leave. That whole attitude pervaded up through the school, so it was a constant struggle for those of us who might have the vaguest interest in learning not to be seen as total outcasts. You almost had to stealth learn all the while feigning complete disinterest.

I know this still goes on today - this is the bloody problem - not the subject matter, not the teachers but the disinterest in any form of education.

Hmmm, the truly recalcitrant. Ok, they get taken away on their own to sit on an small island with absolutely nothing to do for long enough that they have a rethink. There is food to eat and books to read. I always planned to do that with my dc should they take to excessive drinking/drugs.

Not in my dc school they are very heavy in Maths and tbh majority of the subjects!! Id say in our case high expectations!

I've been reading more about this and it's hilarious. Over 1/3 of children achieve a level 5 or above in maths in the Y6 SATs; nearly 1/2 do so in reading. These are the markers of the 'most able' according to Wilshaw. And these pupil should be getting As or A*s at GCSE (at least in English and maths). Failure to ensure that over 1/3 of children achieve this means the school is 'failing' them.

Yet over in Gove's world, there are far too many As and As at GCSE level and this is Not Acceptable. He's irate when less than 1/5 are currently getting As and As in English and maths (and only c.15% last year). By Gove's criteria, schools should be 'failing' at least 65% of these 'most able' children, ideally far more.

Wilshaw is also curiously quiet on the 41% of the 'most able' currently failed in the same way by selective grammar schools.

Following on from Arbitrary's post, I'd like to propose another new subject:

"How to cut through spin & hyperbole and get to the facts and whatever you do, never believe a politician."

The culture of low expectation can also happen in private schools as does 'teaching to the middle'. Teachers are humans and are variable in quality and motivations and expectations.

Our DS1 is very bright and has a scholarship to a good private senior school but far too many of the teachers just let him coast along. He never comes home stimulated and excited about learning.

I have had enough of this after two years and will be intervening heavily from now on. He is just about to enter Year 9 and embark on his GCSE courses. This NOT just a comprehensive school issue.

The teaching profession on average IME does not deal well with bright children but of course the very good teachers do. It can be done.

Some parents are paying for extra private tuition where teachers are weak - which I flatly refuse to do as I am already paying.

Yes, I can see that. I'd be really cross at paying a hundred grand for the same old shit the rest of us get for free.

Cross? I'd be livid!!!

Why on earth do you keep paying beta? Why not find a better school?

God i hate this shit

My ds went to the local comp I went to private. I cannot tell you how much better and more 'real' and relevant his education has been. The teachers have been amazing and the whole experience has left him and his friends with a positive view of education. My oldest friend has 4 kids all privately educated and I see no difference in them socially or educationally.

I think it would help if schools were measured on"realising potential" rather than straight results.
DD arrived in primary school able to read and write and by the end of reception was at a level to pass Y2 SATS (they tested her then).
After that she was left to her own devices - the school effectively stopped putting anything in as she already had got to the outcome (able to pass Y2 SAT) that they are measured on.
As a result we pulled her out of that school and put her in another school whose aim is to get pupils interested, engaged, enthusiastic and doing stuff. The side output of their philosophy is pupils pass exams - but this is not the primary goal.
As a result, DD has leapt up in terms of self confidence, inventiveness, speaking skills, she is still very bright but now she is motivated to do things, learn things (not all exam related) and initiate things (putting on a play at assembly). These are the rimary focus of her school - not add ons that are at other schools that I visited.

I'm so glad I was able to put DD in a school that doesn't chase exam results - but that is what the targets are and "what gets measured gets done". Sadly, politicians seem to love targets especially ones that are easy to measure.
DD came home the other day saying "Teacher X said something REALLY interesting today mummy". If only that was a target!!!!

Why are you trying to turn this into a state versus private debate noddy?

The OP is about issues in state schools. All beta has said, is that there are similar problems in his DS private school!

Talk about starting an argumnet in a cardboard box!!!

Plenty of kids in other cultures do see school as a massive PITA. . The drop out rates are plenty high elsewhere in OECD countries.

I can't recall a single truly inspirational teacher from my school days. Maybe one when I was 7. Probably none that were awful, either, they were all much the same & adequate.
Since we're answering from our experience... in my world, kids who excel are self-motivated. They find aspects of the work to extend themselves. Kids who don't do that may be bright but don't have the work ethic; that's life. I don't trust an education system that spoon-feeds. Movies get made about truly inspirational teachers, they aren't the norm and can't be by definition; I remember only one from university (6 yrs of Uni).

One of mine has a couple of truly inspirational teachers.

Sadly (or maybe not?) they aren't in English or Maths, where he'll probably get a C or b at best. But hey ho, he's likely to get FAB music and drama results and he can now play the ukelele, drums, guitar and gamelan which will stand him in good stead for a life of hippydom

lljkk - yes, there are other OECD countries with high drop out rates, but we are still in the top 10, which means that there are plenty other cultures with much less of a problem than the UK.

Also, countries like Brazil & Mexico who are worse than us, probably have very different socio-economic reasons for those drop outs?