There's a "culture of low expectation" in secondary schools. Do you agree?

[HelenMumsnet]

Hello. You may have seen/heard on the news today that Ofsted is warning that thousands of bright secondary-school-age children are being "systematically failed" at school.

And we'd like to know what you think about this.

Ofsted says there is a culture of low expectations in England's non-selective secondaries - meaning that, according to a new Ofsted report, more than a quarter (27%) of pupils who achieved the highest results in primary school fail to achieve at least a B grade in both their English and their Maths GCSE.

The most academically able, says Ofsted chief inspector Sir Michael Wilshaw, arrive "bright-eyed and bushy-tailed" from primary school, but things start "to go wrong very early. They tread water. They mark time. They do stuff they've already done in primary school. They find work too easy and they are not being sufficiently challenged."

Do you think this is a fair reflection of life at secondary school? Do you think your child's secondary school has a low expectation of its pupils/your child? Does/did your child "tread water" in Year 7? Do you wish secondary schools did more to challenge their more academically able pupils?

Please do tell!

Pleased you have continued on this thread habba. I have followed the discussion with interest, it has been in the main informative and constructive so it's always a shame that, as on so many threads, some posters attempt to shut down alternative arguments by accusing other posters of being determined to stir up trouble and or asking whats your problem. Trying to embarrass posters by pointing out spelling and grammar mistakes is beyond the pale, particularly as most are obviously typos or auto spelling mistakes

Most teachers that I know, as most teachers on this site, accept that there are problems in education that need solving, that there are some poor quality teachers, because they work with them, and that there are many poor schools because they work in them. Parents and students are equally aware. As with all professions, teachers are not above criticism and shouldn't expect to be.

Most listen to counter arguments politely and reply equally politely.

Most do not take the general comments made by posters, personally.

Many believe that Gove and DFE haven't got it all wrong, although it is a brave person who posts such an opinion on MN as I have seen on other threads.

All should be able to express views on MN without being subjected to personal attacks. Maybe then those with alternative views would feel less intimidated and be able to contribute freely and honestly.

Thanks Warwick. I have backed out of a number of education threads recently, not because I felt bullied or intimidated, but because it quickly became evident that it was an anti-Gove or anti selectives bitching session and non-believers were not welcome.

Bit pointless having a debate where accusations of being a Gove apologist is chucked at anyone who doesn't think that the man is a 100% 'incompetent twat', followed by the comment that one should leave the arguments (and the thread) to those who are qualified to debate the issues.

To paraphrase Edmund Burke, all that is necessary for posters like Evil to trumph is that posters like us do nothing. So, to the barricades

But getting back to the OP...

There are obviously schools where expectations are low but there also schools where the expectations are average rather than low. IMO this is equally a problem.

At our selective the expectation is that you will get A*s and you will go onto Oxbridge and from there a highly successful career. Obviously some will go on to become 'average' but the driving expectation is that you will aim high.

I am not going to claim that they are representative of their profession but many teachers here on MN make it clear that the above puts too much pressure on kids and that kids should be made to feel that getting a manual job is just as worthy as getting a well paid office job for example. And that getting a GCSE 'D' in Maths/English is something that they should be happy with.

Various studies have shown that there is a disproportionate number of selective kids taking up coveted uni places and jobs. You have to wonder how much of that is down to bias on the part of unis and employers, and how much is down to parents and teachers telling kids that it's ok to be average.

Habba, to be fair, coming on to threads and referring to a certain poster as HRH (another education thread, not this one) is pretty antagonistic and not likely to win you any friends. So whilst others are busy leaping to your defense, I feel that you are being a bit disingenuous in coming over all virtuous.

What have I got to say about this OP got to do with what I said in another OP? Feel free to give me grief in the other thread.

As for me being "all virtuous" where do I go - oh woe is little ole me, getting bullied by nasty posters"?

As for me bring antagonistic, maybe, but at the risk of sounding juvenile, Evil started it

To answer your points though, Habba

You say that teachers are saying
"that kids should be made to feel that getting a manual job is just as worthy as getting a well paid office job for example. And that getting a GCSE 'D' in Maths/English is something that they should be happy with."

Well, if one of my students comes to my school with a Level 2 in KS2 Maths/English (and yes, it does happen) and wants to be a builder, then comes out with GCSE grade Ds and gets a job on a building site, then yes, that is something they should be happy with. They have still made exceptional progress whilst at secondary school.

"Various studies have shown that there is a disproportionate number of selective kids taking up coveted uni places and jobs"
This is certainly true, but as this thread has covered, there is far more to it than low expectations at school. In the 6th form at my school, the student who is likely to get the highest grades (As across the board) hasn't even applied - simply not interested, despite the efforts of teachers. His parents don't think it's a good idea (believe me - I spoke to them) because of financial concerns and the fact that it's "not for people like us". He has a job for next year - in Argos.

That will go nicely with my

In the 6th form at my school, the student who is likely to get the highest grades (As across the board) hasn't even applied - simply not interested, despite the efforts of teachers. His parents don't think it's a good idea (believe me - I spoke to them) because of financial concerns and the fact that it's "not for people like us". He has a job for next year - in Argos.

This is where Xenia's argument of sending your DC to selective schools so that they follow the crowd (in a 'everybody is going off to Uni so I might as well go" way) comes into its own. The same boy in that environment would be much easier to persuade, except you'd never get him in that environment in the first place I suppose. Hmmm....

But the other students he hangs out with did apply. His best friend is going. The things holding him back are not to do with school. It takes a very strong 18 year old to tell his parents that he is going to university with or without their approval, and to do so without financial backing from home is, frankly, impossible. Just look through a student finance application - even those who qualify for grants and bursaries hardly get enough to cover accommodation costs. The money needs to be coming from somewhere, and I think the teenaged DC who goes against his or her parents' views and wishes to independently get a university education is rare indeed.

Oh, and we are in a grammar area. I asked one of our brightest Yr 11s if she had sat the 11+ when she was in Yr 6 - she said yes, but that her parents had never collected the results Equally, our Head Girl, another very academic student, didn't even sit the exam as it would have meant having to get into the city nearby rather than attending the school she does go to, which is in the large village in which she already lived.

Ahh, hit send too soon.

So even when the opportunities are there and are encouraged by schools, if parents aren't interested, the DC won't necessarily get to take those opportunities.

So, what are the schools doing to engage the parents Evil. Is there a 'culture of low expectation' in terms of getting parents involved?

The Head of our local comp was recently at our primary school for a parent forum on school organisation review (we are currently moving from 3 to 2 tier) and he commented on how involved our parents are and was seeking advice on how to 'reach out' to parents effectively. Hmm...

I can only speak for my school, and I have to admit that it's incredibly difficult. We have a host of parents' evenings (which go on for hours in order to accommodate a range of working hours), not just for academic monitoring, but just so that parents can meet tutors etc. Head of 6th Form has organised events run by the school, the closest university and Student Finance (Student Finance attracted exactly 3 parents) and we have a lot of events which parents are invited to - sports, arts and so on. We send reviews home half termly, have a half-termly phone home fortnight and supply parents with numbers/email addresses to stay in touch. Form tutors are expected to make contact with parents whenever necessary - for both positive and negative reasons. However, it seems to be a case of being able to lead the horse to water but not make it drink.

We are a rural school and get kids from a wide area. A lot live in the city which is a few miles from school and don't drive. A lot have younger kids and don't want to drag them on the bus to bring them to school.

It's something we're working on, but convincing parents that university is a good option when no one in their family has ever gone before, and they are influenced by media reports of debt debt and more debt is so far proving incredibly difficult.

Evil
the other tricky thing with kids where the parents have not gone to uni is to get the bright kids to set their sights high enough.

a kid at DCs school will go to uni. Neither of her parents did.
I finally had to take the three of them to task over a coffee to point out that doing "Business Studies" even if she does want to become an accountant would not be as useful as Maths (at which the child excels)

Now that they have looked at pure maths degrees, all can see that it will be perfect
but they had believed all the stuff about 'vocation' rather than 'pure learning'
luckily we are still friends and for the child the sky is the limit

Absolutely. Many of ours will only consider the local university as well, which is a shame as it's decidedly middle of the road.

I converted them from thinking about Bournemouth or Portsmouth to Imperial College or Cambridge - child is more than capable.

But what happens to the kids who do not have friends as blunt as me?
worrying isn't it ....

Graduates with maths degrees are highly sought after by banks and other financial institutions with PhDs usually earning £100k by their late 20s and early 30s.

However, we like our accountant trainees to have a general knowledge of business. Contrary to what people think, accountants don't do complicated number crunching so a maths degree isn't essential and might even put you at a disadvantage compared to a candidate with A* A Level Maths and a business degree.

Sorry Talkin but you've might have given your student some bad advice if being an accountant is the end objective.

Habba
You seem to forget that I passed my ACCA exams first time and turned down a job with what was then a big 8.

I don't want her aiming to be an accountant. I consider that DEEPLY sad for a 15 year old.
She was thinking of doing accounting A level and then an accounting degree - now she is looking at the stars

I know what accountants do : I have Iris CT open in another tab.

Evil. If you take a kid with a basic literacy level,and though hard work and good teaching they achieve a D and a good enough Education for their chosen Employment that needs to be recognized as a great achievement, and equal to a pupil with high literacy achieving a A or B. because in either circumstances it has enabled the student to advance to the next stage of career/life.

Though i believe in Selective Education,i also know some have to be average and some below average. reading some of these posts it appears some people think being average/below is a shame on the familys, and that these DC"S should not be seen or heard because they might contaminate their offspring.

backbeat, yes, I agree. It saddens me that some posters are quick to deride kids who work their docks socks off for that D grade.

Docks? Delete that.

whereas I believe in non selective education so that all children are aware of and interact with each other.