Winchester College Open Day

[bico]

Anyone going this Saturday? Ds is in year 4 and keen to have a look, I think mainly because they have an 18 hole golf course .

Yes, time I got off this thread ...hijacked it enough already sorry all!

A couple didn't bother with WC for that.
Not sure if it is just for status or the chambers system that prompt the choice, many boys are put up by their prep schools.
Heard that if you are elected, you can't opt out as an exhibitioner and go to the house that gave the offer.

"you can't opt out as an exhibitioner and go to the house that gave the offer."
You can as far as I'm aware.

A useful comparison I was told by colleagues, for those who know Oxbridge but are having a first experience of public schools (I imagine not particularly uncommon amongst parents in London who grew up in the regions) was that Win Coll is a lot like Merton/Corpus at Ox or Christ's and maybe Trinity in Cam (don't know Cam as well), whilst Eton was more akin to ChCh/Oriel or John's/Caius and SPS equivalent to places like Exeter/Teddy and Queen's/Catz in Cam. Obviously, these are far from infallible but it gave a decent rough guide to the atmospheres of each before visiting.

Coming late to this thread, Ds didn't go to Winco despite a place because he didn't want to board and made an excellent well researched and mature case, but,

Don't be put off by the Head, who is atypical of the school imv. He is a friend of friends so must be a nice man but our interview was a mixture of the surreal and outrageous.

Do understand that it is one of the few places that still provides an outstanding liberal education

Do understand that they are scruffy and don't care ( so is Ds 's school , we don't care )

And that you can be yourself. The only other place we have discovered is Ds 's school, in all the others we considered the peer pressure to conform or if not to conform to do so in a pretty standard way was immense. Interesting odd balls fit in.

A week on from our visit and I'm still a bit 'meh' about it and still at the questions of some of the other parents. I doubt my view will change until I have something to compare it to and that won't happen until next term. I've been abroad all week so I've not yet seen ds to ask him how he feels about it a week on.

I really like the idea of a liberal education and the opportunity to learn for interest's sake rather than just number crunching qualifications. The fact that interesting odd balls fit in is another aspect that attracts me. Ds will never be one of those dcs who conform, albeit he does like structure and order.

MrsFW -- Thank you for sharing your views. I think my own thoughts coincide with those of your son. I am still attracted to many of the features of WC but the visit might have put me "off" the idea of boarding (for my son). What day school did you find that is similarly liberal and does not force "conformity"? Is your son happy with his choice?

Son has gone to a second order day school in London, but where imv the maths ( his subject) is prob better than Winco's, although at win co all do it to pre u level.

He is in the top sets and there finds some interesting friends. Tbh I think he would prob find more at Winco , given he likes to test out intellectual ideas and never never lets an argument go. I would say that not all the teachers are top rate teachers ( having a phd does not automatically make you a star at teaching, let it be said). But they are mostly pretty good, and mostly understand my son to a t. Those who claim he is really interested in their subject are those he rates less.....

The school is good at sport, excels in one sport and is big enough for Ds to get into teams.

It is good at art, drama, quite good at music, has a poultry club as well as a poker club, and turns out nice well balanced young men. Of Ds 's class, only 4 of them I reckon have both sets of grandparents born in the UK; one of the things I really like about it is that he comes across people from all backgrounds and nations, because his generation is going to have to compete globally and they know it.

In the lower school the pastoral care is outstanding. In the middle school they are,a bit more hands off but still pretty good. And their SEN provision is exceptionally good.

There are inevitablly some things I would change, but it us a far less pressured environment than some of the other London day schools we looked at. And I like that. And the scruffiness. They can relax.

And they don't feel ashamed of having families. I saw one member of the sixth pick up his baby sister and cuddle her, in the school car park, and every one else just regards it as rather nice. That doesn't mean that you don't have the teenage/ parent problem but they can show affection.

To get a more complete view of WC and its ethos, visiting College itself would help, regardless of views or intention when it comes to scholarship. College is a unique setting. Not about monetary awards (none), or status or bragging rights (near absence of pride and arrogance among them) or even traditions, but the mix of stimulating personalities/conversations and for those who are not inside the box it is a place where you realize that there are others just like you. Not necessarily the "brightest" if there is even a way to define that. Lots of commoners do better or equally well, but just the setting. WC life is always about the houses.

I agree wholeheartedly with terms, though having married a colleger would say that the houses are superior for normality!

"but where imv the maths ( his subject) is prob better than Winco's, although at win co all do it to pre u level."
MrsFred not contesting this just curious in what way its better.

Happy, happy to pm you but don't want to hijack this thread. I know you are a Winco mum and fan, and this is just my view.

. I think Winco is, as I think I have said, outstanding at the liberal arts. I did quite a lot of research on maths teaching, results, and going on to read maths and at which HEIs , and imv at the time we were looking at Ds going there, their maths was not so strong as some other schools'.

Added to which the Head Man was snooty about it! But Ds's housemaster would have been a mathematics don, why we chose that house and not the ones that his cousins are at or have gone to. I am sure he would have done well there.

Interesting comments about maths, as it confirms my impression. I also don't have a good impression of their physics, from their website. Most of the extension topics they mention have very little to do with modern physics. (But I don't know the school very well, only through family, as I do not have sons. It is slightly relevant to us as our DDs may go to its "sister" school which does some of its sixth form extension enrichment at Win Coll.)

I'm sure that their maths is good, don't get me wrong.

But I wanted it to be as outstanding as the liberal arts and not to be a second fiddle subject or even just not the co leader.. I thought Ds's potential housemaster was prob excellent but equally I wanted large numbers of boys to be doing not just maths but further maths a level or the equivalent. I felt, possibly wrongly, that if you were not in college, and we didn't put Ds down for election, that you might not have lots of sparky mathematicians round you, whereas you would have lots of sparky barristers or politicians in the making. I may well have been wrong. Not saying that barristers and politicians can't also be mathematicians, of course , this Is is getting rather involved.....

It was interesting how difficult it was to get that information from some schools, or to find out where their pupils had gone to read which subjects.

anyway, ultimately we gave Ds the choice. It's his life and we were both unhappy at boarding school, so if he felt strongly we thought it should be down to him.

I do still regret it on some levels, BTW, because it is such an outstanding education.

The standard of Maths and Physics in Win Coll are actually excellent, my DS is in the top set of both of these subjects, so I know, and the topics they covered are far more advance. I has a DD who went to a top girl academic boarding school, and now in Uni. she is also very impressed with what her little brother is doing in these subjects, way more advance than what she covered during her A level in Maths. It is his second year in Win Coll, he is very happy that he is with a group of very able peers.

This is going off topic. Partially share MrsFW's views and partially disagree with Xpatmama's yardstick.
This is yet another WC contradiction. If the maths (less so physics) were similar to that in the Election papers, then I would say WC's maths education was exceptional. The maths in Election is real maths not just bundles of topics in a syllabus or a count of advance knowledge as though you were collecting baseball cards. Not seen anything like Election maths anywhere. WC is the only school that dares to go there which is admirable wish it could carry that through to its teaching and learning.
Application and deep understanding of maths (different from Applied Maths) is lacking. It is not numeracy either. This is common to nearly all the school though. WC could do a lot better if it could do more Election style science and maths not necessarily going broader with topics but deeper into how and why theorems and methods came to exist and their implications. Right now, as far as maths goes, it is just a upper tier me-too nothing exceptional.
Somehow WC is prepared to venture towards depth in history, philosophy, literature, economics etc. May be this is a manifestation of its (over)emphasis on "liberal arts" and not having scientists and mathematicians to balance things out at the top.

I am sure it is. And glad to hear it.

But, as I say, when I did the analysis it was not so clear to me that it had such an emphasis as elsewhere and certainly they could not talk to it as they did to other subjects.

Just saying.

For us ultimately it was the boarding / non boarding issue and there were other special circs.

Overall, WC helps the boys to learn and question. So, it is very much up to the boys when it comes to becoming mathematically competent (not just getting As and A*s). Just wished it would do more to encourage that like they do with other subjects. Competence at a minimum is more or less summed up in ones ability to tackle every problem in Election maths which needs only CE level knowledge at worst.

Terms, yes, that rings true, and for the top sets, xpat

Tbh, I didn't think the ordinary exam maths, not election, was stretching. So if you are in the top sets you will do really well. As I say, we didn't put him in for election because although the Head suggested it we didn't think he would get it and didn't want him to fail. Lots of baggage there.

I also wasn't sure if Ds would be in the top sets, knowing what college was like. But maths was his thing. So he needed outstanding maths taken really seriously throughout, or certainly the middle sets too. And I couldn't see that from the work his cousins are doing which is more pedestrian.

I'm not sure that our choice is much better. But he has ended up in the top sets.

I still think it is an outstanding school, as I say, and were Ds different would have pushed him to go. But he isn't.

You have to choose the right school for your child.

I agree MrsFW. WC is certainly not for every child, like any school. Election comes with too much myth and baggage as you said. You have boys who are pushed/talked into it by parents and/or prep-schools and whether elected or not, the potential scars that come with it could last a long time. Then there is the unspoken expectation that if elected you had to be in top set everything (particularly maths) because that was the only measure of your cleverness. Not at all healthy by sadly at least real outside world.
Having said all that, the dons are exceptional. They are equipped to respond to individuals who feel a need to dig far deeper and to understand the whys.
Maths and science education is too mechanical overall. WC could do much better by encouraging every boy to dig deeper. It does it with other subjects after all which is exceptional education. Why not science and maths too?

Terms, don't know Winco now save through his cousins' experience ( there now). ( nearly all my family has gone there for generations so took some really hard thinking not to override Ds. ) But married first on roll and the baggage is huge there and for LO if he were to follow.

And, regrettably imv, he's not a liberal arts chap unlike the cousinry.

Sorry if this has hijacked, but just trying to explain to people who don't know the school why we turned down a place, which is v odd.

Mrs FW, This is of interest to me too, as my DS is deep in his comfort zone with maths and who knows could end up wanting to do a degree in it or in physics if inspired by the right teaching i.e. by teaching which is inspirational and stretching (rather than mechanical)...interestingly, we went to see one independent day school where the maths dept is very very strong - ...but I had doubts about the the school overall as a bit too narrow for DS as it seems to be focussed very much on results and I think he needs a more all rounded ethos and with strong maths dept, but I have yet to identify a boarding school which is as strong in producing a similar number of mathematicians that get into RG/Oxbridge .....but then perhaps I have not looked as far as I should. Wondered also about Winchester maths focus from looking at leavers' destinations,...I don't think DS is broadly academic enough for Election across the subjects overall, and not sure I would want that kind of pressure for him, though he may well be able to cope with the maths part of Election, as maths is so much his "thing" but am curious that others believe Winchester is more liberal arts focussed as I, rightly or wrongly, also came away with that impression.

Out of interest, does anyone know where one can get hold of comparative annual stats on how senior schools do getting entrance into Oxbridge for maths or the natural sciences (as opposed to having to look at each and every school website for leavers' destinations)?

Terms, I agreed with you that the dons in WC are exceptional, they do encourage the boys to dig deep! As for science and maths, I can only say from my DS set, the dons do certainly expect the boys to dig very deep and understand the whys too.

AnnaBBB. Election is NOT academic. Most definitely not. Broad, very much so. It is surprising how many pre-U A* boys, teachers, tutors etc are stuck on some Election maths problems although it really is CE level knowledge. Election papers are looking for thought process and evidence of in-place curiosity not what the boys have studied. There is a world of difference between numeracy, Kumon "maths" and maths as problem defining and solving skills. Knowledge alone will not impress them. In fact, some problems forbid you from using advance methods.
As for other subjects they all have their ways of extracting thoughts rather than right answers, languages are tough (vocab and use of language). You are judged on your best three or four not every paper sat and you elect subjects to sit not all subjects. All about taking boys out of their comfort zones, even in what they think are their strongest subjects - "your weapons are of no use here". Do look at some past papers, more than a few boys actually find them fun.
WC is certainly not average in science and maths. Dons are enthusiastic about their subjects and are well capable of inspiring. It is just that the kind of free range learning evident in many subjects is not in maths and to some extent some sciences. When asked by individual boys, they would go that extra mile to share their understanding, knowledge and curiosity, to inspire. The weak area in WC is in fact the old fashioned way of teaching modern languages. As said before, maths and science is an upper-tier me-too education, just good but not exceptional. It could do with less teaching and more provoking of learning.
May be it is a leadership issue which makes WC very comfortable with applying its learning ethos to non-maths and non-science subjects and uncomfortable due to lack of personal involvement in maths and science. Head's links with schools in Asia may be an issue too since Asia is widely admired by the UK and the US for high standard of maths (rigid taught version).