Has anybody successfully tutored for the 11+ completely by themselves(need reassurance)

[Blueskiesandbuttercups]

DS year 4 desperately wants to go but we can't afford tutoring.He is bright,driven and I was a teacher so in theory it shouldn't be too hard.

His friend is also going for it but they're well off so tutoring and have already started.Ds is nagging me to get started.

Sooo went on the 11+ forum typed in the school to order books and I'm already in a pickle.They cost £££££ so need to get it right. We like CPG but loads are listed we haven't heard off. Would it be ok to just go with Bond and CPG or should we go with exactly those listed?

Is it possible to do this ourselves or am I deluding myself? If I screw this up I'll feel like shit- forever! Need lots of reassurance.

Presumably that's an independent school poppy so it's not as though it's compulsory to attend. Stick him in the local state primary if you're concerned.

"In order for him to keep up next year I will have to tutor him all through the summer or he will drop down a set. How is this fair to a 11 year old?"

But he's obviously in the wrong set. How is that fair to an 11 year old?

Sounds like a seriously crap school to me. Or at least a school that has no idea how setting works!

seeker - Research is about the general rather than the specific. When they say there is no effect from tutoring they mean that if you take a large group of children, test them, tutor half of them and then test them all again, there is no statistically significant difference between the scores of the tutored children and the untutored children. That does not rule out the possibility that it is effective for some individuals.

Yes, I know that. And I know that the plural of anecdote is not data! But as I said, it seems completely counter intuitive.

Poppy - why is it the fault of the school? . It sounds like you are getting caught up in this competive parenting thing.

If your 11 year old is already doing GCSE level work he can drop a set and still be way above the national average.

Take my DS. He is in set 3 for maths at his secondary. I can push him in an attempt to move him up but it's a bit pointless given that 95% of the 2012 crop got GCSE A or A*. DS can drop two more sets and still be working towards a strong A.

If you want to push your DC so that he stays in the top set but it's a bit silly paying for something that you don't think is good thing and equally silly for choosing to playil Competive Parenting and then complain about having to play the game.

We relocated to England when my DS was in Y6, had come from international school abroad based on hybrid American-Australian education and had no idea about British one. He is a bright boy but it was a shock to him to get into British education - he still was writing with pencil, never did more than 15 minutes a day homework and never experienced exams (in the international school they had tests now and then but never told children in advance not to stress them and never revealed the test results to parents).
When he did first autumn exams in Year 6 in his school here his highest mark was 62%.
I tutored him myself the whole Year 6, in summer exams in Year 6 he already got around 85% on his strong subjects and around 70-75 in his weak ones. He did pre-testing for 13+ entrance in Year 7 and managed to get a place in one of good day schools. I am working full time so only tutored him over weekend. I used Bond books and past papers of schools. All possible - don't get stressed.
I considered getting tutor as well, but then one of the parents in his school told me: why don't you start yourself and see how it goes before spending money on tutors? I am so glad I listened to her. I should have gotten him tutor in French though, that I admit, don't know the language myself and now he is behind the programme...

seeker - how can you argue elsewhere that tutoring is unfair because it skews 11+ results in favour of MC parents AND then argue here that it's of negligible value

I don't argue that tutoring is unfair. I argue that a system where tutoring is effective is unfair. A VERY different thing.

And it's not me arguing that tutoring has a negligible effect. I think it has a significant effect. As I have said on this thread.

I don't see the difference.

As for you not arguing that tutoring has a negligible effect, you chose to make the comment that research showed that tutoring had no effect. I assumed that you was endorsing the research. My thinking was why else would you introduce something to the conversation if you didn't think it was relevant.

I didn't- prh47bridge did.

And if you can't be bothered to read what I post, I honestly don't see why you are addressing comments specifically to me!

Seeker is correct that it was me that made the comment. Your suggestion that she is being inconsistent is therefore wrong.

There is extensive research that shows properly constructed VR and NVR tests are immune to tutoring effects. Obviously a child is handicapped if they have never seen this type of test before but once they have taken 2 or 3 tests further practise produces little or no improvement. Even repeating the same paper produces little or no improvement beyond what you would expect from the child's age.

Of course, I cannot guarantee that the tests used by schools for 11+ are properly constructed. I suspect some schools use tests that are not immune to tutoring effects.

Apologies seeker.

Me attributing comments to the wrong person aside, the research sounds counter to many people's experiences. Mine showed steady improvement over the course of 6months.

If you took a child that was well versed in exam taking then no doubt that child's improvement will quickly plateau once he gets use to that test. However, if you took a child like mine that attended a non-academic primary then familiarizing him with the test will take a few weeks but getting him to work effectively under the clock will take months.

I honestly don't think the academic/non academic-ness of the primary school makes any difference to the VR and the NVR. Maths and English are obviously different, but the VR and NVR are such very specific skills, and skills which it would be bonkers for primary schools to teach because they are nothing to do with education. More like puzzle solving than anything else. And it is a learnable skill. I know because I learnt it.

Has anyone got the research to hand?

OP I hope you're happy with the direction this thread is taking. Please shout if you're not.

NFER (who set most of the VR/NVR tests) used to say that tutoring had very little effect. But their latest research showed that it in fact had a very marked effect, and the scores continued to improve the more the child was tutored. It's been quoted (and linked to) on the 11+ forum.

Anecdotally, I tutored both of my DC myself. And their scores definitely improved with familiarity, not least because as they get more familiar with the questions/techniques they get faster so can answer more questions in the time. My NVR scores improved markedly as well!

There is nothing in this world that practice won't improve.

Irrelevant discussion to the thread - the OP stated that her dc would be doing VR, Maths and English. Clearly one can teach maths and English and improve, or what are our dcs doing up to GCSE and possibly beyond?

So her dc's performance will definitely improve with help from parents or private tutoring.

The question asked was whether a parent can tutor those subjects as well as a paid-for tutor can.

The answer is yes, parents can. There are many excellent resources online and in books for parents who wish to try. Some are free; even poor parents can help.

hardboiled too much practice without additional learning or anything extra to interest them is bad though surely?

Oh yes Yellowtip! I was just merely stating that there are no "VR and NVR tests immune to tutoring effects" and there will never be. That's why IQ tests are a joke. Because no human activity in this life is immune to practice and preparation.

Bread, this thread derailed long ago...

"Bread, this thread derailed long ago..."

But rapidly gets back on track when then OP asks something.

Don't worry about me I've had some fantastic advice,interesting discussion.

Still trying to decide which books and ages.

What is the difference between Bond assessment papers and 10 minute tests?There is simply masses of Bond stuff(they see parents coming don't they). Will get a couple of Eng,maths and VR each but not sure which?CPG a lot more straight forward and less to confuse me with.

You think 8-9 to start this summer hol for a just finished year 4 child yes?

There is a Bond book which has assessment tests in it so you can find out where you start. I would really do that first. I wish I could remember whwt it's called- maybe somebody else will know? You don't want to over face him- but you don't want to start too easy either. And don't forget Nintendo Brain Training.

The assessment papers are full 45/50 minute papers- the 10 minute ones are just quick papers- really good for filling in spare moments.

Thankyou!

Will see if Amazon has that assessment book.