The Big Choice: the State school or the private one - are we thinking with our wallets??

[scampadoodle]

Ok, just to add to all the other threads like this today.

DS1 got into the private school he/we liked, but no scholarship. We will also almost certainly have a place at the local state school.

PS is lovely, not super-hot house, but high-achieving. Fees are a lot though & would have an impact on our family life (and we'd really feel it if DC2 went private too). It's about 45 mins, an hour journey each way. He would probably enjoy it there & hopefully it would polish him off a bit. I'm slightly worried that it leans more towards humanities than sciences (not good for DS1) BUT I could be wrong about this as it was just an impression I got on Open Day.

SS is great. Streaming. Latin. It has a very mixed intake but those who do well, do well IYSWIM. It's only been good for 2-3 years though, before that it was awful. If he knuckled down DS1 would do well (that is a big 'if' BTW). I do like the idea of sticking within the local community though, & we could afford tutoring if we felt he needed topping-up.

But are we just being stingy at not taking up the opportunity for the private school? The thought of not having to worry abut school fees is very very tempting...

I'm not just wheeling out family anecdotes. I'm pointing out quite a lot of inaccuracies about what happened '50 years ago'.

Hardboiled - Ship building is gone. Steel and coal is gone. A lot of manufacturing is gone. Simple assembly jobs are gone and semi skilled job is following. The Internet and email has meant that a lot of office jobs are being outsourced.

If we don't out innovate South Korea & Co then 'culture' isn't going to put food on the table in 50 years time.

Oh Racing! What an excellent post at 12.20.

"I'm not a religious person, but I enjoyed singing two hymns every morning when I was at school. I feel that knowing the words of Jerusalem, or even We Plough the Fields and Scatter all adds to my... roundedness."
Interesting point lainiekazan my staunchly atheists DS attends compulsory chapel every Sunday even he admitted being moved by the quiristers who sing in chapel.

Thank you MrsShortfuse.

Lainie: 'can't access' - how did you hold your tongue? I want to scream my head off at the lot of them. I go into a primary school on a nearby estate which is one of the most deprived areas in UK, and give the little chavlings bits of 17C John Clare and Shakespeare to read. Guess what? They absolutely love these authors. I teach classical Greek poetic metre to them - really complex mathematical stuff. They love that too. Why do they love it? Because it's intrinsically interesting. It engages the brain.

At one school with a largely Muslim population we read Rumi and discussed how and why he was one of the greatest poets ever. They came in next week, eyes shining, saying, 'My dad couldn't believe we learned about Rumi at school.' They went on to write stunning Rumi-esque poetry. It was individual, expressive, precise, thought through. Because this tough classical literature which was deemed over their heads really stretched their brains and children love having their brains stretched.

Oh Lord I could rant on and on about how much I despise people who think children 'can't access' certain kinds of music. For goodness sake, they all watch the Simpsons, and the Simpsons is absolutely littered with brilliant music from Bach to Pachabel. They'll probably all hum along and ask what's that tune? because they recognise it, and then they might even start having conversations about musical styles and developing their knowledge or some such banned activity.

I hate hate hate the attitude that the masses can't possibly process anything beyond what is instantly familiar and digestible.

No one can acces anything if theyre not exposed to it this is what drives me mad. If your given the chance to listen see or read something and then say you don't like it thats fine (I personally can't stand my DH's early organ music that he loves to play) but children and adults need to be given the chance to access it in the first place.

racing - you are obviously a teacher that is very passionate about what you teach. Is it possible that the kids are responding to that as opposed to a love of Latin?

Personally, I have no interest in the literature that floats your booat. I prefer crime thrillers and science fiction. I prefer country and western over classical music. As for Art, it has been decades since I have set foot in a gallery. In your eyes that probably makes me an "un-rounded" person.

But I can hold my own in any conversation about sociology, government and politics, history (last 100 years), cinema, technology and business affairs.

The point that I am trying to make is that a lot of (older) MC people subscribe to the view that their traditional view of what constitutes a "well-rounded" person should be the universal measuring stick. Instead of Latin I would rather kids take Sociology or International History. Understanding the modern world IMO makes for a more "well rounded" person than understanding a dead language.

This isn't meant to be a "bashing" post so apologies if this is how it comes across.

..... Just to be clear, I am NOT saying that kids shouldnt have access to classical music and literature, and art. Merely that it doesn't make a person a more rounded person just because they can quote Plato or some other long dead guy.

"Instead of Latin I would rather kids take Sociology or International History. Understanding the modern world IMO makes for a more "well rounded" person than understanding a dead language."
MTS why cant they learn all of these and art history, all styles of music and mediaeval literature etc. why do we have to limit learning the brain has an infinite capacity to learn?

racing your post chimes with me. Utterly.

I resent the very idea that people from certain backgrounds cannot access anything deemed challenging. And that the great masses should only learn things which will be useful...

And anyway, how can we say that learning about the past and those long dead isn't useful?

To paraphrase a greater writer than I 'I may live in the present but the past is a second heart that beats within me.'

happy - I am not making the point that we should restrict what children have access to. Hence my follow up post to clarrify my position. I obviously didn't do a good job.

I too believe that kids should have access to a wide range of options. Some would like that to include Latin, Art, Classical Music and the like. With me it's social and international history.

In a perfect system, our kids should have an options list that includes all the above . However, this clearly would only be practical at some super sized school but that is for another conversation.

All that I am saying is that your average school can only offer so many options and I am questioning why some see certain subjects as the benchmark for a good school or a well rounded child/adult.

MTS I too dot understand why Latin is seen as a bench mark for a good school although it is I understand considered by many to be academically I suspect its more of the this how things used to be in on the pre WW2 or 50's 60's 70's (or any other period viewed by some as halcyon days) when education was so wonderful ethos.
Im not sure you need to be super sized to to have a broad range of options many top independent schools offer a huge range but few are larger that 700- 800.

Meant to say I too dot understand why Latin is seen as a bench mark for a good school although it is I understand considered by many to be academically rigorous.

For a bunch of people touting their open minded-ness you are being very narrowminded.

Some people place the emphasis on learning useful stuff because they don't have the luxury to do otherwise. To you, education is about self actualization or personal growth. Fine but for a large proportion of the proportion of the population it is about paying off student loans and getting a job that pays a salary that a family can live off.

And it's kind of patronizing to take the position that not being into the classics or art somehow makes me/us lesser people.

happy - there is a reason why a small pub can't offer the same food/beer choice as a large Weatherspoons. Why do you expect schools to be different?

My DS has 150 kids in his form year which I believe is relatively large. It would be great if he had 10 languages to choose from but the reality is that the school can't afford to retain 10 language teachers. But if you had a 500 form year .....

A student I know has just moved from a local private school into the local state school - one which is turning itself around and on the up but some people are still dubious. His opinions of the differences - in the state school the staff really care about the students, really want them to do well and will do everything they can to make sure students achieve their best. In the private school - staff are doing their job well but no more -less of a feeling that they really care about the outcomes.

Well obviously the private school he was at was not a school with good teaching and leadership, be it private or not. I have heard the same exact remark the other way around. There are good and bad schools, both in the private and the state sector, that is plain abvious, and that's why we spend months posting questions and making decisions.

Decision - it's not personal but It narks me greatly whenever someone holds up a not so good private school and compares it to good state school. The observation is no more valid than me holding up your private school and comparing it to some failing state school.

There are bad schools/teachers in both sectors and comparing individual schools proves nothing.

happy - I forgot to address your 'huge' comment.

My DCs had lessons in 4 MFLs (5 including Latin). Of this they elect 2 to go forward with for GCSE. Art is divided into 3 specialisations. Design and Technolgy is also divided into 3 specialisations. They pick one specialisation from each subject. However, I would describe this as 'extensive' as opposed to 'huge'. :)

I would love to see Mandarin, Sociology, Politics, International History and Economics on the list of subjects being offered. That, to me, is a 'huge' range of options.

"Im not sure you need to be super sized to to have a broad range of options many top independent schools offer a huge range but few are larger that 700- 800."

BECAUSE THEY HAVE LOTS OF MONEY!!!!!!

Sorry for shouting, but really!!!!!!!!!!

"I resent the very idea that people from certain backgrounds cannot access anything deemed challenging. And that the great masses should only learn things which will be useful..."

I agree. That's the main reason I am so opposed to both private and selective schools. They perpetuate the view that clever/privileged children need to be educated in a separate school so their cleverness and privilege can be nurtured away from the mass of the population who won't appreciate the finer things.

But if state education won't offer the things I want for my DC (and it's clear that a. they don't, at leats not where I live and b. most people/parents don't want what I want)...then what are you saying seeker?

That my DC should be denied the education I and they want?

If I am an ouitlier in wanting what I want, then why not leave me be? Why is it better that my DC join the majority in what they want?

People say join your local school and help improve it, but how, iof the other parents don't agree with me? What if they're perfectly happy with what they've got?

Aren't I just better off sourcing my own eductaion for my DC rather than mucking up everyone elses?

seeker - from what I've read, you are only against selective education for other people's children so let's not go down that road eh?

I hear what you're saying, Wordfactory, but many of us want a certain education for our dcs but ain't got the loot to pay for it!

I do agree that it's hopeless if someone ponces into their local school and asks for Latin, fencing, debating society, whatever, when none of the other parents or pupils are remotely interested. I suppose you could argue that the school should just provide these things so that pupils have exposure to them and can then decide whether or not to participate. But that's expensive and I don't think many schools could afford to retain a Classics teacher if only two pupils wanted to pursue this subject.

"seeker - from what I've read, you are only against selective education for other people's children so let's not go down that road eh?"
No no no no no no please God not this again!
Why do you need lots of money to get visiting speakers in, choir masters, organise drama after school art, talks by teachers with any interests art music politics sociology international history and anything else you could mention. In a school of all graduates why cant teachers their friends and anyone else for that matter be encouraged to give a up the occasional bit of time to broaden the curriculum? What about that university of the third age crowd they give talks to each other for nothing I'm sure they'd love to talk to children about their work interests etc. I'd happily talk to children about my work as would my DH and many others we know Im not talking about a weekly commitment just an occasional one.