Dunottar/ Reigate Grammar - Merger, or what?

[quandry]

Got the letter today, and I have to say I don't really understand what is going on?
Is RGS bailing out Dunottar to save it going under?
I can't see the advantages for RGS at all?

Someone suggested that perhaps they'd make it co-ed, less academic school in the future (like a Box Hill in Reigate?) and share facilities more? (Sports fields closer than Hartswood?)

From the DFE website "academies are publicly funded independent schools that provide a first-class education".

I'm not sure that it is true to say that most academies use distance as a criteria, my DD's school uses fair-banding and has a city-wide (and further) catchment area....

I would just suggest being careful when asking whether Dunottar would be independent, maybe better to use the term private...

I think fair banding is for state comprehensive schools (academy or normal) when you test students and then put them into 'bands' of ability (say, 6 or 7 bands). Then places are offered using distance from school to people in each band. If the school is popular then it will still be a local school - and a good thing too!

Academies are not fee paying schools - they are funded by the state - over half of the state secondary schools are academies. However, some of the best state schools and some schools that used to be independent schools are now academies. United Learning as the experts in all this as they are one of the biggest academy chains in the country.

Which city are you talking about Marmite?

He he he. So the lack of the word "independent" does not bear any relation to fee-paying v academy.

So, this thread is amazing. Really:
I've just copied and pasted all posts since Sunday morning into Word to be able to review them properly. 28 pages. Removed everything that wasn't immediately a question that someone wanted answering (not necessarily by DV, by the way, just what's outstanding.) With all the extra lines and names and stuff it fitted on............ Two pages!! And comprised a small hand full of questions that could be answered. And a bunch that can't given the timing of the negotiations. I'm sleepy now. Will sift tomorrow, publish here and see if the responsible parties can give any steer. Watch this space.

FYI : Tomorrow's job is the blog. :)

Yes I agree that academies are state schools and are non- fee-paying. Just quibbling over the use of the word independent, as I could foresee a situation where parents asked UL whether Dunottar would remain independent and the answer was yes, but the intention being independent academy....

My DD's school do not use distance as a criteria within the bands, so some girls come a very long distance, just as they used to when it was fee-paying and before that when it was direct grant.

Hope the meeting with UL goes well, I just wanted to point out that converting to a state academy could actually be a positive.

I think it will become an academy because that is what has hapoened to virtually every other UL school taken on this century. The admissions will be much fairer and will basically be filled with Reigate children as the it will be a local school.

Dunnottar being taken over by what is nowadays an academy chain ais actually good news for the town.

At this point UL will insist that they have no intention etc. I hope that they do go for an academy so I will read what is in writing and rules out acadeny status rather than cleverly worded statements given verbally that are not binding.

Tiredandweary: you're marvellous. I'm sure everyone on hear appreciates your hard work and I look forward to reading the results of your research.

Tiredandweary, I agree that what you have said so far has been really helpful and balanced and it is brilliant to think someone is looking into the questions raised here. Regarding UL, a number were raised a couple of weeks ago, when the possibility of UL first arose.

Thanks for being open to questions. I guess I have others too and hope that others won't mind me raising them here, because it is not with an intention to undermine, just the kind of thing I think current and prospective parents would want to know.

-what will ULs approach be to retaining current staff and bringing in new ones (likely ratios)

• will they appoint a new Head? What role does UL have in running the school, especially in terms of setting class sizes, determining staff to pupil ratios and setting targets and agendas.
• what class size would they be aiming for in the medium term, once numbers have recovered.
• how many GCSEs or A levels are likely to be offered to the Year 9s (as they sound like a small year group)
• do they have any plans for the ratio of boys to girls in the medium term.
• what exactly is in it for them....how do they receive their return, how much have they received from previous schools and how quickly do they need to receive this return to continue beyond 10 years.
• is the possibility of turning into an academy something they have already considered
• will they give a written guarantee to maintain Dunottar as a fee paying school for 3,5,7,10.... Whatever years?
• what is the timescale and involvement of parents if UL think becoming an academy is necessary/beneficial.
• what is Surrey CCs view about whether a new state secondary is needed in Reigate and have UL been in any discussion with them.
• are the current fees likely to remain or rise or fall (rough%s) over the next 5 years.
• will they put the answers to all of this in writing, so they are accountable for the answers they give.....especially the one about how long they will guarantee to keep Dunottar as a fee paying school.

I guess by asking UL these questions, it will become a bit clearer to existing parents and prospective ones how similar/different Dunottar might be to now....and also, how much further change might be ahead.

Hope they give answers which please people, so numbers increase quickly.

I am sure that UL will give the school a chance and will say they are committed for the long term. However, what does that really mean?

As I understand it, all UL schools have to give money each year to UL so they have the funds to buy or save more schools (that is where the money comes from to save Dunottar). No UL schools are supported if they are making a loss. That means Dunottar will need to make a profit / surplus to fund other schools in future.

How long will UL give DUnottar? Does that mean that the school needs to get up to 220 or 240 or whatever the numbers are that will not just allow it to break even but to actually contribute back to the UL group.

What guaranees will UL give that if the school has not reached, say, 220 within 4 years that they wont say that they will need to pull the plug.

I do not understand how UL could survive if they let schools carry on if they are making a loss. It seems reasonable that the school will need to hit the financial targets.

I think that the current year 7 and 8 have about 35 students between them and there are twenty something in the year 9 group. The new year 7 will probably be about 20 again, lets say 25? That means in two years time there will be approx 85 in the then years 8 - 11 plus another, say, 35 in years 12 and 13 (although that will only happen if Dunotar manages to recruit quite a few more into the 6th form compared to the past). That will mean that the year 7 in two years time would need to be approx 80 pupils in total just to get to 200 and 100 if 220 is needed to mean they can give money back to UL?

Please would DV ask about this as it really looks a high ask. Are they really prepared to run the school at a loss? That would make Dunottar the only school in the UL group that they are prepared to run at a loss - so why would they? They have taken on other schools and either sold the land merging schools or have turned them into academies if numbers have not rapidly increased. That seems a much more likely outcome? I wont believe UL will guarantee underwriting 5 years of making a loss (never mind 10) as an independent fee paying school (rather tan as an academy) unless I see it in writing.

Could DV ask for that to be clarified?

Roll on Thursday! Very enthusiastic about it all. I'm sure UL will have all the answers and very prepared !

Oi, ladies, TiredAndDetermined if you don't mind!! I may sound weary... but that may be in relation to the madness of this thread!!

So (and this is before the latest couple of downloads!) I've now worked my way through the crap questions here and they boil down to this:

There are actually two for UL:

Is UL planning to turn the school into an academy?
Answer: no. They will be doing lots of comms once their are in a better position to, I am sure. And then you can engage in all the detail you want. Until then, please know that academy option is not on the table (And no, you don't have to believe me, I get that!)

Can anyone come to the open meeting on Thursday?
Answer: yes. So you can ask all your knotty questions there!

Hopefully this is helpful!

There were also questions for Dunottar parents as a whole... well, ones here really. And here, I am answering them personally:

Why don't you like us asking questions?
Not aimed at me, I know, but I have found some of the phrasing of questions here - and the free stating of speculation as fact - quite amazing. I've responded with flames and deleted them more than once. So, generally a MNers we need to think about how social media impacts communication. And particularly on areas such as education which is such a personal choice.

Why were you 'shocked' by the announcement?
I was shocked (but not surprised) when the Junior school was shut. It was true that numbers had dropped horribly, however the new head and a number of great new staff had started to make a difference and we thought / assumed that they would wait to see if these changes would turn things around.
However I was surprised and really shocked at this year's announcement because you cannot turn an enterprise around in four months, and this seems to have been the ask. Whether RGS was going to "bank roll" the school is not the point. The school will have taken an exceptional financial loss last year because of the restructuring; the reputation had a wobble as well as a boost... so lots of unknowns. And a lot of girls left directly after our chairman made his speech at prize-giving… I wonder how the mood would have been different if he had helped people feel positive about the school instead of concerned? The marketing was just starting to work, so we assumed that the crunch for decisions would be next year, not this. In the same spot, you might have thought the same.

Why criticise the Governors?
The Board of Dunottar surely has a duty to find a way to enable the school/charity to continue and thrive. Their stated view (in September from memory) was that co-ed was not a viable choice. In a year they did not reach out to the parents on possible options. There was a survey, it was very general and vague and spoke of past choices and not future options. You can imagine that the people who did find a whole series of options in the course of the first two weeks of looking might feel that the Dunottar Board could have done more.

Finally there were some questions aimed at Dunottar Voice ... and there is still the review of the blog comments to do, so I'll get the blog Q&A page updated properly, I think, to cover things off in one go.

What I saw here were:

• Has DV/ the school contacted people who've left?
• What happens to the money from the fundraising?
• What happens to DV now?
• Will staff want to stay in co-ed, will their skills/experience fit?

Laters.

@ChocolateWombat: you are asking a lot of questions there that will undoubtedly be things they are working up. They have known the school for about five minutes... I reckon once they are actually on board (!) these are exactly the areas they would look at.
Anyway I've pointed out your list to them... we will see.
Also, come along on Thursday. Ask them then.

@redillredneck You may have missed the news up-thread: UL has committed to support the school for ten years. Unconditionally. So, while you may not believe it, it is what they are committing to and their commitments are in writing. Although not to you personally yet.

I would say that if the school cannot wash its face financially in ten years' time, it probably should be closed! Until then, we are fine.

Finally, your sums do not account for the growth anticipated by opening the doors to boys. The feeder schools are super-excited about the prospect of a "Dunottar for boys". 60% of the local prep pupils are boys (apparently) so I think in two or three years time, when it is established, it will be just fine for numbers.

Tiredanddetermined: thank you! I'm sure everyone on this thread appreciates your diplomacy, stabilising influence and hard work. I have one extra thing to add to rednecks comments about numbers. From September there'll also be intakes at year 9 (well as year 7 and sixth form). The annual year 9 intake is good as this should help to boost any year groups that are low at the moment.

Tiredand determined, thanks for your work on all this. Appreciated.
I know a couple of people who would will be looking for secondary places in 2015. ULs answers to these questions will help them see if Dunottar is a likely option for them. I understand it is probably all being worked through behind the scenes as we speak. These things do take time to work out and pin down and I expect UL gets pretty much the same questions every time it takes over a school, so will be used to providing the detail needed. Hopefully the answers will provide the reassurance needed about what kind of education will be available at Dunottar and people will start signing up.
I would love to come to that meeting, but will be away with work, but know people who will be there, so will pass my questions to them.
Thanks to Tiredanddetermined again. (was replying to another poster on another thread known as Tiredbutnotweary and somehow the names got muddled in my mind) I hope the meeting on Thurs goes really well.

Can you ask UL what will happen to the teachers?

I guess their proposal means redundancies?

That's probably not known yet, and if it it anyone affected probably wants to hear from a letter not mumsnet!

What about GCSEs?

As there are only 15-20 in a year group in the younger years, I suppose UL will only guarantee a choice of 5 or 6 GCSEs rather than the usual 15? Will they cancel the arts?

I suppose that they must have thought this through in order to make a costed proposal. What have they said about GCSE options for the younger year groups?

If boys are going to join in year 7 and the 6th form, they will need sports pitches for football etc.

Where will the new pitches be for September?

Those numbers assume that there are no further joiners, I expect they have assumed more pupils coming in to join at say 13+. As for pitches, if they can't time table to be able to share the space they have on site, I'm sure they could hire facilities from another school and minibus them over.

Just got the information on the open days - 26 Feb, 5 March and 18 March, starting at 10.30am - I'm going along to one of these open sessions to ask my questions !

Just when you thought the light was at the end of the tunnel.

The school of governors have announced that they are revisiting all options on the table.
So the UL deal hasn't been signed. There's a surprise.

RGS are still playing a games.
I don't think the school will shut. But it not be what Dunottar Voice thought it would be.

The plot thickens. Now we will not hear anything until 13th Match.

Is the meeting with UL tomorrow still going ahead?