should I grass up the new neighbours?

[sybilwibble]

Met the new neighbours at another neighbours drinks party. Lovely mum and daughter, plus granny. Ask Mum, as you do, Where have you moved here from? Her response was that she only lives about a mile away, where they have a lovely family home, now sat empty, but they've rented the house in our road as it's right in catchment for the great local secondary. They've been here a month, and will find out on March 1st whether their dd will get a place (she will) then they will move back in a year.

Granny then tells me seperately, that they will be moving back in March, as soon as they get the letter from the great senior school, as they have not been successful in finding anyone to rent their family home from them. Either way, I'm a bit . My dcs are younger so we're not applying this yr, so doesn't directly affect us...but would feel very sneaky calling the local authority... wwyd?

They are living in the house so I think that's ok isn't it???.?

just guessing

just because the council do that and use criteria which IMO isn't fair, doesn't mean I think it's morally right to help the council do this by grassing

especially if the people grassing sold up or gave notice to deliberately move into catchment - v hypocritical IMO

They haven't told lies. So what's the problem.

everyone who moves to a catchment at any point in any way and applies to a school is potentially denying another child a place
but freeing up a place somewhere they didn't apply for/moved from

its okay to say about new bought house "yes its got a smaller garden than our old one, but it's in a good catchment", anyway we'll prob sell and move in a couple of years, but not okay to say you are renting for exact same reason

I would. It is not truthful.

They haven't told lies

Yes they have. When completing the application form you are required to give your permanent address. You are not allowed to give an address you are renting temporarily in order to gain admission to your preferred school. By giving this address on their application these parents are claiming it is their permanent address. It isn't.

As tiggytape says, the council has to make a judgement call. Occasionally they get it wrong as with a case I helped with earlier this year where a family had genuinely moved into rented accommodation. Unfortunately their landlord denied they were living there because, unbeknown to them, he was fiddling his council tax. Parents can appeal if they think the council has got it wrong.

Some parents get away with this kind of behaviour. Some think they have got away when they haven't - the LA found out what they were up to and used their actual home address but they were close enough to the school to gain entry anyway.

This is more of a problem in some areas than others. Whilst there are no accurate national statistics, figures I have seen suggest that around 200 offers are withdrawn each year as a result of fraudulent applications. A much higher number of attempted frauds are discovered in time to prevent any offer being made based on the incorrect information given by the parents.

ILoveSalad - You may disagree with the rules but they are what they are. You must give your permanent address when applying for a school place. You may not give someone else's address, an address where you do not live or an address you are renting short term in order to get a place at your preferred school.

tiggy I understand the council's rules/cut offs, but I don't agree with them - i think they're unfair! And on the basis of them being IMO unfair I don't think the OP should report them.

The OP asked if she should report them. I say no

How does the council know what homes I own though? It knows where I pay council tax and where I am registered on electoral roll. I guess they can do a land registry search, but I still fail to see how if I genuinely move house, ie rent my own house out, change all bills and official documentation etc and take out a years lease on another property, how the council could a) keep track of the fact i still owned my other house and b) decide that I'd moved for catchment rather than any other legitimate reason, such as financial downsizing, dodgy neighbours or marital disharmony. I'd be interested to know how many withdrawn places were for families doing this kind of wholesale semi-temporary semi-permanent move, as opposed to using a false address or only moving for a couple of months.

Btw I should stress I have no direct interest here - my dd has a legit out of catchment place at an outstanding school! I just find it bizarre that councils fixates on this one particular way of getting round the system, and that if I don't own a house I could legitimately rent in catchment for a few months then move 30 miles out of catchment, even though the intent and practical effect are precisely identical.

Here is an exert from West Berkshire school admissions brochure. It seems clear the Neighbours are acting fraudulently ..... (My underlining)

It is the child's normal permanent home address where he or she lives with his or her parents/carers that is used to decide in which school's catchment area the child lives. Temporary addresses cannot be used to obtain school places, e.g. temporary addresses whilst retaining a previous permanent home will not be accepted. If parents/carers plan to move, documentary evidence will be required, such as proof of exchange of contracts or a tenancy agreement to confirm residence at the time of admission. If such evidence is received by 1 January during a normal admissions round the new address will be accepted for the forthcoming allocation. Confirmation received after 1 January will not be taken into account until immediately after allocation dates and waiting lists adjusted accordingly. At all other times changes of address will be considered immediately on receipt of evidence. Any child offered a school place based on fraudulent or intentionally misleading information concerning a catchment area permanent home address will have their place withdrawn and a new application will be required, by which time preferred schools may be full. This may also occur after the child has been admitted to a school.

If you are living at an address, who can possibly say whether it is your permanant address or not ? You may not even know that yourself.
If you are registered wit a GP at an address and have bank statements and utility bills coming to that adress, your current school holds that as your address then you are pretty much home and dry.Do you really think the LEA has funds to carry out extensive investigations?

What would this accomplish ?

Seems they are taking measures to give their kids the best. Why on earth would you want to be an obstacle?

ILoveSalad - These are national rules, not ones set by the council. The idea is that places at a school should go to local residents. It is acceptable to buy a house close to a school and live there permanently. It is acceptable to rent a property close to a school provided you move in before the applications deadline and intend to live there permanently. It is not acceptable to rent or buy a property for a few months to get a school place with no intention of living there permanently. Every year I am contacted by parents who have missed out on a place at their local school through the fraudulent actions of others. I see the distress this causes. That is why I would report the people mentioned by the OP.

libelulle - Your LA gets a list of all residential property that changes ownership within their area each month from the Land Registry. They would therefore know that you still owned the original property. As for deciding why you had moved, the LA would have to make a judgement call based on the information available to them (unless it is one of the LAs that takes a hard line and always uses the address of the property you own even if you are genuinely living in rented accommodation). They may get it wrong. I know of cases where LAs have either failed to spot fraudulent applications or have incorrectly adjudged genuine applications to be fraudulent. If people did not make fraudulent applications LAs would not have to make such judgements.

Shocked that you're even considering it tbh!

It's none of your business. Leave them to it.

I bet you were all smiles when they were telling you. You're never gonna get neighbour of the year award.

nurse and ninja - There have been children on my estate (housing, not country!) who have been unable to attend the nearest school a few minutes walk away because people have rented tiny properties nearer the school for a few months, then moved back to their proper homes once they have places for their children at that school.

The next nearest schools are both 3-5 miles away and oversubscribed, so the children whose places have been effectively stolen from them end up at schools not just in different villages, but on the other side of the neighbouring city.

How can you possibly justify that?

So what is considered a permanent' address?

This family have rented a property, (I am presuming it is family-home sized) and have their own house on the market to let.
So if they are successful in letting their owned house in time they will be OK?

If they are genuinely unable to let it and have to move back in March for financial reasons, they willl not be OK?

if they do not move back in March, but still have an empty property on the market, what then?

It sounds like their intentions were to stay for at least year (although not sure what a 'reasonable time' is). That may not work out, so would they still have the option to change their application after the closing date? Perhaps, if it is just a change of address, and they have schools in their chices close to their owned house address. But if the distance is too great, their child could be withiut a local school.

No, I would not report them. But hope for their child's sake they have done their research and see things through.

If the LA basically has to make a judgment call, and they do sometimes get that judgement wrong in cases where a family has moved into rented accommodation but has been unable to seel or let the property they own, then that seem to me to be even more unfair than I thought it was.

How can it be right that you can genuinely want to permenantly move but that the council can say they don't believe you? It can't be.

So if the rules set are fundamentally unfair in the first place, how can they expect people to respect them?

I maintain that it is not stealing a place from another child, simply because places do not belong to children before the allocation to be able to take it away from them. If you believe that it is taking a place away from another child, then you are basically saying that one child has more right to their chosen school than another child, and that is simply wrong. They have equal right to the school place most suitable for them.

But the OP's 'friend' has moved lock stock and barrel into the catchment area! They have a bona-fide case-ie a child in the catchment area! In legal terms how can that child not be entitled to a place? And in moral terms if they were not living in that property then another child probably would be.