Maths and Further Maths A Level

[NewFerry]

Just a quick question. I often read that taking these 2 subjects is somehow easier because it's only really the same time needed as studying for 1.5 A levels. Please can someone point me in the direction if the report that says thus?
Many thanks.

Thus? This obviously!

DS started work on both, but dropped F. Maths as he did find Maths as a whole quite a challenge. Because it's modular at the moment, you can use some of your A level modules towards F. Maths (I think), so I can see what you mean about cutting down on the work. However, that's only if you have a brain that can do this stuff!!!

I think if you can master the concepts in further maths then the maths A level seems easier and you could get through the syllabus quicker than someone just studying maths on its own. But that obviously only works if you are mathematically minded enough to manage further maths comfortably.

There's a Cambridge university respones to number of A levels studied that can be downloaded from this page that states:

"Further Maths is thus a particular case which should be considered separately from others. In many ways it is effectively not a fourth, distinct A level, but grows out of work done for A level Maths. The combination of Maths and Further Maths is not, for those strong in the subject, as heavy a burden as combinations of Maths with any other A level."

Thanks. I've read this a few times but never knew the origin of it. Certainly doesn't seem a lighter option when I look at the 12 text books DS has to learn, and then sit 12 separaate exams to get these A levels

It's because if you are really good at maths (and you would hope that someone who is studying further maths would be really good at maths) then maths A-level is quite easy and doesn't take very much studying. It's not because Further Maths is easy, but because if you're the type to take it, Maths is (hopefully) easy.

I don't think I even revised for my maths A-level and got an A.

Not sure if that is the origin of the 1.5x saying or not, but actually I don't think maths is difficult compared to sciences. They have 6 exams per subject too if you count the practical ISA-type assessments and in maths, each module is very self contained (and some are really not very difficult). Also, by the time you are on your twelfth maths exam you know exactly what is expected in terms of exam format and technique and can learn the work quite quickly.

DS1 doing both. At his 6th form they do the Maths A level in the first year and the FM in the second year. They are however timetabled twice as much as normal subjects. There are 13 exams in total.
Without doubt modular exams must be easier than linear because the revision is in bite size chunks. Apparently this will end next year though and from Sept 2013 all the exams will be at the end of the year.

I wonder how many people take maths, further maths and just one other A'level. I guess universities would accept this combination, especially for a maths degree.
My DD does maths and further maths, but with very extra little time compared to just 1 a level. You are expected to be good, so I guess this makes it easier.

Maths and further maths are two seperate A'level's and most Uni courses count them as such. However some courses prefer a wider variety of subjects, for example, medical schools often don't count a second maths subject.

You would need to look at the actual requirements of the type of courses and the type of Universities that your DC may be interested in

Doing further maths can be advantageous if you need to secure an A* at A level as, at the end of A'levels, the exam boards arranges all the marks from the Maths and Further Maths modules to maximise the marks of the maths A'level. Ie, all the best scoring modules (within certain constraints) go towards the Math A level rather than the further maths A level. IYSWIM
I would guess that most DC's that study Further maths study four A levels.

Cahoots DD2 is studying Maths at university and a lot of the people she knows on her course studied 3 A2s, Maths, Further Maths and one other. There certainly wasn't any expectation to be taking 4 from any of the universities she visited and while further maths was preferred it only becomes a requirement once you get to the more competitive maths courses.

cahoots, it is easier to get an A at maths if you do further maths, but not quite for the reasons you describe. While some modules are flexible as to which A level they count towards, the two that matter for an A at A level maths (C3 and C4) are not, so an A at maths is only more likely since by virtue of having done more maths it is easier to do well at those modules. This advantage isn't there for students who sit the A level maths course in yr12 and the f. maths course in yr13 unless they resit C3 &/or C4 in yr13. While the other modules also count in a small way towards an A, this threshold is likely to be easily exceeded by anyone with a realistic chance of gaining the required marks on C3 and C4 needed for an A. 75% average on 4 other modules (including C1 and C2) + 90% average on C4 and C4 (the hardest two) is what is needed for an A at maths A level.

It is true though that flexing the modules between the two A levels makes it easier to achieve an A, as all the modules count equally towards that.

At DS's school, which is very strong for Maths, the top set take Maths & FM as ONE option block. DS's set takes Maths with FM to AS level only spread over the 2 years, again in 1 block. This is more manageable. The third set takes just Maths, but they warn that the boys may get bored as they start the A level syllabus in Yr 10-11, whilst revising the GCSE stuff.

Ohh, thanks for the clarification gelo. I have to admit to finding it a bit confusing. I am still recovering from helping DS imput his math module marks on his UCAS form, that was really confusing!

webwiz. DS has also applied for a maths based course at Uni's like Bristol, Warwick, etc (disguised info as i dont want to out myself ) and his offers have all been in the region of three A's with an A in Maths. None of his five offers have mentioned his fourth A'level. I guess that means,in theory, he could drop one
He was well aware when he started his A' levels that he didn't need to take a fourth subject. It was more a case of him enjoying his subjects. .

It's very confusing cahoots! I just read back my post and it was fairly incomprehensible, so sorry. Ds applied to maths last year and his offers were all based on 2 or 3 A levels too, but we know a couple who applied to Cambridge who got offers based on 4 or even 5 A levels and STEP too! Mind you, if they'd done fewer subjects to start with they may have got easier offers.

Oh no gelo. I didn't find your post confusing. It was helpful. I meant to say I found the maths modules marks confusing.

At one sixth form we visited, noted that FM not on option blocks at all. All A level students take 4AS and EP in yr12. During the maths presentation, we were told that C1,C2 and S1 are taken by alk for the AS. Those especially gifted at maths that wanted to do FM could take it in . So I guess that would me 9 modules in a year. But it would allow the mix and match that Gelo mentions.

I find the variety of approaches to Further maths really confusing! DD2 just did as an ordinary A level subject with a full option block of teaching. She could have done Maths A level in a few less hours but the pace of that class was slower as it had a wider spread of ability.

Cahooots DS wants to take 5 AS's so that he can fit all his choices in (he's in year 11 at the moment). His school are keen but me and DH are because we know how disorganised he is.

webwiz. My DS used to be pretty disorganised too but the fact he was able to choose 5 AS's that he was interested in and enjoyed meant that he was glad to have studied 5 AS's even though he was aware that it wasn't nessecery for the type of Uni's and courses he was planning on applying to.
There were quite a few DC's at his school who choose to study 5 AS's. Some of them because they were planning to do medicine/vet/Oxbridge type applications and some because they couldn't decide what to do.

At my DS's school they can start the 5 AS's and see how it goes and, if it is not working out, they can drop one. This makes it an easier decision.

At my DS's school they do Maths in lower sixth then FM in upper sixth. Altogether they do 14 modules - C1-4, M1-4, FP1-4?, S1 and D1 I think. But only 12 count for the final mark so they have leeway to drop marks in some of the are they find more challenging. Which was lucky fr DS as he got a U in M3 but still got two As overall ( the last year before A* - so I may be out of date )

But it's not necessarily the case that one topic flows form the others - some of the topics are totally different from others and do need individual study. My DD is currently doing C1 and C2, and S1 and S2 and is breezing the core modules but scratching her head on the stats - totally different approach.

For DS we are going with the start with 5 and see how it goes approach. He works better when he's under pressure so it might turn out to be a good thing.

BeckandCall some of DD2's friends at university have "extra" modules. I agree that the topics don't always relate to each other, DD2 found D1 a bit of a strange module that didn't seem to fit in with everything else. Her paper was one the exam board set with an error on it so that just added to the fun.

I did just maths, further maths and physics at A-levels. I moved school and they didn't do the 4th subject I wanted to.

I went to Oxford to read maths, so they certainly didn't object to three subjects only.

Depends on the child and on the teaching?

DS wants to read economics. He did his own research which suggests for some courses Universities like to see double maths. Advice we got was that he would have to learn maths to this level at some point and it is easier to do this at school in a classroom setting.

He is lucky that his (private) school teaches maths well and that they run several sets for those taking double maths. This means he is in a class with students of similar ability and away from those who find the subject "easy". He has gone into FM knowing he will probably have to work harder on his FM than his other subjects, and may not get as good a grade. They routinely do four A levels and we assume any University looking at all four will prefer to see a slightly lower grade in FM than a top grade in, say, chemistry.

Top set at his school will be a different place. Some really gifted mathematicians, who have already done Advanced iGCSE and who are expected to take FM in their stride.

I suspect my son would not have opted for FM if he had not been sure of the strong and supportive teaching.

You probably need two out of three. A natural mathematician, strong teaching and hard work. So only easy to those who tick the first couple of boxes.

webwiz my Ds is doing 5 AS Maths, FM, Physics, Chem and Biology. He plans to drop Biology in Y13. I was also and frankly worried that he would overstretch himself. He was determined to prove me and the college wrong. So far he has been more organised and focussed than ever before, and he is getting top grades . The fact is he loves these subjects, particularly maths and is delighted to be able to drop English etc.
His college take in a lot of Chinese students who are all streets ahead in Maths and this has ensured the pace is pretty fast.

My DS is in a very big comp with only one Further Maths set. It works well as the DC's taking Further Maths are often taking similar subjects such as Chemistry and Physics and they often all end up in the same classes. This has helped their social lives no end as they have formed a strong group and I think it is good to be in a group where most DC's are focused on their work and wanting to do well. It also means when they are being taught the regular Maths A level Modules they can go at a fairly quick pace.

needmoresleep. You DS sounds well prepared and sensible and has done the right thing by looking at the actual requirements of the courses he is planning to apply to. It makes it do much easier if they can do this. My first two DC's knew exactly what they wanted to do from about 14/15 but my third DC hasn't a clue and needs to choose his A Levels for next year. It is not his fault he doesn't know what to do but it makes things so much harder.