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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

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Original poster

A2 Further Maths - no of hours teaching per week?

40 replies

JustGettingByMum · 15/09/2012 07:46

DS is taking A2 FM, he has come home from school on Friday and told us that because of time tabling clashes, they are only being offered 2 hours FM pw. All the other subjects are 5 hrs pw

Firstly, I think it sounds impossible to cover the whole syllabus (3 topics) in this time. What do you think? Maybe it is doable?

Secondly, I want to contact the school on Monday to discuss this further.
If your dc is/was doing FM, would you be kind and ask them how many hours teaching they get, and how many are in the class?
Even better if you are a maths teacher and can advise!

For DS 1- 8 students, 4 hrs teaching pw

For DS 2 - 4 students, 2 hrs teaching pw

Thanks for your help x

OP posts:

Knowsabitabouteducation · 15/09/2012 07:49

Schools timetable using option blocks. All option blocks should have the same number of lessons. It should be 5 hours.

mnistooaddictive · 15/09/2012 07:54

It should be 4 hours but it is very common for fm to be 3 or even 2. It is wrong and unfair but still happens. It generally means teachers have to do extra lessons after school and in holidays which is unfair on everyone.

MrsHerculePoirot · 15/09/2012 08:17

Secondary maths teacher here. We have two fm classes in both u6 and l6 and they have between 15 and 22 students in. They have 4 hora for maths and 4 hours for fm the same as all other subjects. Any classes that can't be timetabled end up with a lesson after school
So they get that teaching time and the teacher has a TOIL (time off in lieu) period somewhere else in the timetable in return.

MrsHerculePoirot · 15/09/2012 08:17

*hours not hora

noblegiraffe · 15/09/2012 08:27

Due to budget cuts at sixth form I know some schools are considering cutting teaching hours for subjects with low take-up on the principle that they will be getting more support from the teacher in the lessons that they do have.

I'm a maths teacher and at my school FM gets the same number of teaching hours as Maths, but I know that at other schools it is taught in one option block at the same time as maths. If the students are really good at maths, often they don't need to spend as much time on it as they do their other subjects.

WofflingOn · 15/09/2012 08:32

Thank you Mrs HP, I've just spent a happy ten minutes watching the hora on Youtube.
DD had 4 hours tuition a week for Further maths.

MordionAgenos · 15/09/2012 10:01

@justgettingby Obviousky it was a long time ago, but when I did Further Maths A level, there were three of us in the class and we had 2 hours a week. Plus I think 4 hours of normal Maths (in a group of 20). We finished the syllabus at the end of the first year. The school had no choice, it wasn't supposed to offer further Maths at all (it was such a minority subject that the LEA decided it should only be offered at one school - not ours) but because there were 3 of us, and none of us wanted to go to the other school the head of the Maths department and the applied specialist both offered to teach us in a free period (for them). They were confident that the 3 of us would be able to manage on 2 hours teaching a week. They were right. We all got As.

prettydaisies · 15/09/2012 14:03

My daughter who is doing maths and further maths gets an extra one and half hours compared to her other subjects. So nowhere near two option blocks. The are 15 students in her set. She has just started lower sixth. Core 1 mock in 2 weeks!

bruffin · 15/09/2012 14:09

DS get 5 x 50minutes a week. further maths, same as normal maths

Original poster

JustGettingByMum · 15/09/2012 14:31

Goodness I am staggered at the range of answers. I really don't see how students can take an A2 in 2 hours pw. I imagine they are at a serious disadvantage to those who are lucky enough to get the full 4/5 hrs pw

What to do next?

OP posts:

MordionAgenos · 15/09/2012 15:05

@justgettingby Not really. If you can't do it in 2 hours you won't be able to do it in 5.

Faxthatpam · 15/09/2012 15:14

DS1 did maths and FM A2 and got same amount of teaching time for both, some of the FM was after normal school hours. There were 6 in his FM class. He said they needed it - in fact thinks you probably need more time for FM.

I would definitely question this with school, it doesn't sound right to me. Ask for an appointment with head of maths and ask him to explain the discrepancy.

mnistooaddictive · 15/09/2012 16:43

I wouldn'y bother with head of maths - they will be as annoyed by it as you are. The decisions are made by head/ deputy so you need to see them.

SecretSquirrels · 15/09/2012 16:50

DS1 just started AS and gets 5 hours Maths plus 5 hours FM.

Knowsabitabouteducation · 15/09/2012 19:35

Is FM in an option block, timetabled against other subjects? If so, do those other subjects get only two hours per week?

If FM is out in its own option block, I can see that it would be difficult to timetable.

What was the timetable in L6? Most schools just roll up their sixth form timetables to the new year. It would be weird to have the full complement of lessons in L6 but not in U6.

Milliways · 15/09/2012 22:15

At DS's school, the top set do Maths & FM together in ONE option block.
DS's set do Maths + AS FM (over 2 years) in one block.
Lower sets just do the Maths - I don't think they offer FM as a separate subject!

KennyRogers · 15/09/2012 23:43

Depends on how good you are at maths really.

I did Further Maths (A rather than AS) a dozen or so years ago, and I had no teaching time at all, as it wasn't offered at my college (they did buy me the textbook I asked for though), and did it in a year (I got an A). I tend to think if you are good enough at maths to be taking Further Maths in the first place, you are not going to need much teaching.

I'm by no means a maths genius, not going to solve Fermat's Last Theorem or anything like that, and have never done any really hard maths, but I would say that if you are doing Further Maths at all you should be exceptionally mathematically able and two hours is plenty.

Faxthatpam · 15/09/2012 23:54

However good you are, if you are taking the subject you deserve the teaching time IMHO. If the school can't timetable it, then they should not offer it.
Mnistoo is right - head or deputy would be better.

MordionAgenos · 16/09/2012 08:21

@faxthat I disagree. There really is no point doing further Maths if it's going to be a struggle.

Faxthatpam · 16/09/2012 09:45

Well,my DS1 had a bad start with FM - just didn't do enough work at the beginning and struggled to catch up (lazy complacent boy thing). However we got him a good tutor for a couple of terms, and the school were supportive, and he ended up with an A... I think if you are good enough to consider FM, and are accepted onto the course then the school has a duty to teach you properly. Not everyone is a maths whizz, in DS1s case he was pretty good, but there were others who were better, but with the right support and work he got his A.

noblegiraffe · 16/09/2012 10:13

I'm another who didn't have any timetabled further maths lessons (some lunchtime sessions but mainly self-taught), so if you're good at maths you really don't need a teacher all the time, just decent resources, plenty of questions to do and the answers.

However, maths a-level had content removed to further maths in 2005 (to improve maths take-up which was falling dramatically). Maths A-level + further maths AS is now comparable to the old A-level content. Therefore further maths should be made accessible to more than just people who can just do maths. People who want to do maths at uni should do maths and further maths (unis need to catch up and make this a requirement), people who want to do maths heavy subjects like physics or engineering should at least take further maths AS and others doing science or social science should take maths at A or AS.
The Further Maths Support Network now offers free online tuition to students who want to study further maths but whose school doesn't offer it. They also run study centres and free online revision seminars in order to encourage more students to take further maths. There is a crisis in maths education and we need more students to take it post-16, not fewer.

Original poster

JustGettingByMum · 16/09/2012 10:17

Thanks for all the comments. I am reding and running right now but will be back later.

Just quickly to answer some if the points, yes there was a separate options pool for fm in Y12 so I don't know what's happened to it in Y13.

Those of you who passed the A2 with very little help or support, well done to you.
My DS will not "struggle" any more than any other A level student who finds they're expected to cover the syllabus in less than half the time allocated to every other A2 subject in the school.

Morrdion I don't think your comments were helpful
Kenny, I've just read on another thread we are both on that you got 6 grade As from your local FE college, so I think you are hardly typical.

To everyone else thank you. I promise will be back later x

OP posts:

Takver · 16/09/2012 10:18

I'd agree with noblegiraffe - even 25 years ago with the old A level content I was at a definite disadvantage at Uni (studying economics) not having taken FM. So its not only going to be those who are exceptionally mathematical and going to move on to maths degrees who want to follow the course.

Knowsabitabouteducation · 16/09/2012 10:29

My DS is doing engineering at University. He did do FM, but those who didn't had to do a remedial course in the first year to catch up. Most universities will not insist on having FM as they recognise that many schools do not offer it.

At my DS's school, they do the full maths A-level in y12, followed by FM in Y13. This worked out well as it meant there was a proper grade on the UCAS form rather than just predictions :)

MordionAgenos · 16/09/2012 11:46

OP - the fact that I didn't agree with you doesn't mean that my comments were unhelpful - it just means I didn't re-enforce your own opinion. Since my opinion is based on the experience of actually doing further maths I think you are foolish to completely discount it. There is no evidence so far - there just can't be - that your DS won't be able to do just fine with the amount of teaching his school (which presumably knows his capabilities) has scheduled for him. Why assume he won't be able to do it? It seems like you don't want the encouragement of knowing that 2 hours a week is just fine, but instead want to be told there is a terrible problem.

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