Year 7 Literacy: ability range in top set?

[Iamnotminterested]

DD1 has had her SAT/TA results, did well and I'm naturally keen for her to be placed in a high set in high school - what parent wouldn't? The school she is going to do not set until October after they have done their own assessments post teaching in mixed ability groups for all subjects up until then.

I have two questions for any KS3 teachers around:

1. As I said in the thread title, what ability range would you expect to see in a year 7 top group on entry/October? (School has I think a PAN of somewhere between 150-180, sorry, not sure) Will the level 6 sats papers make a difference this year? No-one did the writing at her school, and I'm pretty confident that DD's writing is as strong as her reading.

1. How much of a nod would a non-selective, above average but not top comprehensive give to SAT/TA results anyway?

Thanks.

SATs are a general guide, but not the whole picture. It does depend largely on the school, but generally a top set would be level 5s. It is also likely that some low level 5s will be in set 2. It does depend on the school though as one school I taught in had high level 4s in the top set. Also depends whether they set over the whole year or in 2 or 3 strands.

Thanks for the reply. So a secure 5b should be safe?

In the first few weeks of secondary, our school did CATS tests which I believe were used in conjunction with the SATS results. You would hope that they would also be fairly flexible and able to move children up and down if they were in the wrong group.

In my dd's school, where the pupils come from many different primaries, they use their own CAT scores and don't rely on the SATs results at all. Also, they re-jig the sets periodically, so the groups they are in at the beginning of Y7 wouldn't necessarily stay the same.

Not what you asked, but I just want to come back on what you said, "I'm naturally keen for her to be placed in a high set in high school - what parent wouldn't?" Many parents, including me, would only want their child in the top set if that were the right place for her. IMO much better to be happy and making good progress in the middle set than struggling in the top set.

Our top set was decided after the first term and had 5b and upwards. However, that wasn't SATS scores 5B - SATS scores had no bearing on the choice at all. It was all on the work actually achieved in the first term. So, yes a 5B would have been in top set in my daughters year but not necessarily a SATS 5B.

This was to give all children the fair chance to get into the right set - some are coached more than others for SATS at Primary.

As for assuming top set is th eplace to be - not necessarily true, just makes the parent feel better.

My daughter (in set 4 of 5) actually achieved a better result in her GCSE Language in year 10 than one in top set. She also achieved better GCSE result in Maths (in set 3 of 5) than 2 pupils in top set. She did very well in the sets she was in. Some children work better in sets where they are at the top rather than being bottom of a higher one.

There is an assumption that as you drop sets the ability drops. To some extent that is true but there is also a lot more overlap than you would imagine.

Level 5 and the girls who should have got level 5 and didn't got into set 1 at DDs school.
Reasonable comp. loses a few very bright DC to grammar.
Checks setting with CATs early in Y7

Ofsted have been on local primaries backs this year and some have done extra work, so I think it may be only clear L5s this year.

I agree, I actually don't want DD to go into the top sets when she starts in September!

She has worked incredibly hard this year and achieved a solid set of 5b's in all subjects, I am incredibly proud of her and the work ethic to get those grades. It has been a massive boost to her confidence. Finally, she thinks that she CAN do it!!

DS started secondary last September, he is naturally more able than his sister and went into the top sets for the subjects which are setted (correct phrase?!), which for our school is Literacy and Numeracy in Year 7. I not being disrespectful to DD by saying that, she is far more arty and musical than DS, but he is stronger at the 'academic' aspect of education. I have seen some of the work he has had to do, particularly in maths and I feel sure that this would undermine her new found confidence completely, which is the last thing I want for her.

As MrsSquirrel says, 'much better to be happy and making good progress in the middle set than struggle in the top set'!

Don't worry too much, the teachers are the experts and will make the correct assessment, plus there is movement during the year if required.

Yes, my friend's son has always been in Set 2 for Maths and has just got an A* which is a better grade than many in the top set. Also, the higher the group, the larger number of students.

Top set in our school would really be top level 5. We would also be looking more at teacher assessment than at sats level. You might find the school does their own testing or assessment by getting the children to write something in test conditions and then use this to help them set the children. I have also had plenty of children who have achieved a 5 in their sats and then their class work does not measure up to this standard. I would try to relax about the set number and instead just focus on whether her work develops and whether she enjoys her new classes.

5b doesn't guarantee top set in our year 7 either, however like previous posters, set 2 pupils have the exact same results as many set 1 pupils in many cases. He has been given options to move up, and he asked to stay in set 2.

I wonder what percentage of kids are getting Level 5a in their SATs then? In our secondary there are 2 top sets. The current consensus is that the actual Set 2 teacher is preferable to the Set 1 teacher.

Just out of interest, what do schools do where there is a big difference in levels for reading/oral work vs written work? (probably at least a whole curriculum level & poss more - say level 5 vs level 3, at a stretch low 4 on a good day with a following wind)

Takver
DS scraped a 4c by one point for writing and was a 5b for reading and was put in set 2.
DD was a solid 5 probably a 5b all round and was set 3

However as someone else said the teacher she has had in yr8 and yr9 was brilliant for her and forecasts A for her at gcse.

Takver,
Same issue here with my son who has dyslexia. He got Level 3 Writing and Level 5 Reading for his SATs. He started off in Set 3 but was moved up to Set 2. I suspect that his Speaking & Listening will be one of the best in the class and his Writing Level will easily be the worst. The content however will be very good. He's recently started using a laptop but without a spellchecker he'll be in trouble!

That's interesting, bruffin & niceweather. I definitely think its right that its better to be working at a comfortable level rather than struggling - dd has tended to be put in higher groups at primary that match her reading/speaking level & has really had her confidence knocked because she's always running to catch up with the written work. She's started using a keyboard more which helps as she gets quicker with it - not sure to what extent they'll want her to go down that route at 2ndary though. She's fine with spelling, its just the physical getting anything on paper which is hard for her.

It is obviously hard to get the balance right Takver. Way back in Yr 3, we found out that DS was placed on the bottom ability table which was very upsetting as he is very bright.

We were told that DS was definitely in the right set, not that we asked. It was just mentioned at parents evening, that he has an ability to analyze and not to worry about him struggling in a high set. His problems are spelling and getting things down in an organized fashion. He was top set for humanities and science. He is very bright, so would have been very unhappy in the middle sets or below.
It wasn't until yr 11 when he was finally given extra time for exams. He gets 10% for writing subjects and 25% for maths, although personally i think it should be the other way round.

That profile could describe my dd2, bruffin - how did you go about getting your extra time in exams at secondary schools - was he assessed or did the school just announce it or what?

breadandbutterfly, obviously dd is nowhere near that stage, but she's been assessed by/working with the Ed Psych, and one of the things that she said was that as she moved onto secondary she'd be monitored and that applying for either extra time or dispensation to use a laptop during exams were both possibilities in the longer term. So I guess it could come as part of an ed psych assessment?

(She did also make lots of helpful suggestions & dd is now improving massively with writing, so I hope a) that she won't end up getting her confidence knocked back and b) that she won't need extra time by that point!!!)

He was assessed by school. I think there was one in yr 9 but no outcome, then again in yr 11 when it was decided to give him extra time. It was his teachers who asked for the assessment each time because he is clearly capable of A/A* in most subjects.
He was on SEN register in primary where he got one to one help in yr5 mainly in spelling. Because he managed the level4 I think he was taken off sen.
When he started secondary he was in top set for Mfl and doing 2 languages. There was a lot of pressure on him to get high marks, so I had a word with Senco and was put back on SEN with an IEP which allowed him to do his homework on pc.

Why do you want her to be in a high set?
She will not achieve a higher grade because she is in a higher set. The school should place her in the set appropriate to her ability and will teach her according to her ability. As someone else said the higher the set, the larger the number of students generally and so less help.

If top sets are level 5, what would they do with a DC who was working on level 7 in Y7? Would they be able to differentiate from the start of Y7, or would he be in a mixed ability class until October, working at a much lower level? Just curious as to what the standard is there if a DC is working a way above the top set?

Top set up to this year had a ceiling of level 5, so some of them will have been performing higher. Ds was level 7 in science in yr 7 and had no problems in being stretched, but his school sets from day 1.

CouthyMow,
Part of the English course for my son in Yr7, Set 2, was to discuss Hamlet's madness. Another topic was to discuss and write poetry. One would hope that these topics could be challenging, even for someone working way ahead of everyone else. I imagine though, that the classroom discussion would have to be pitched at the level of the majority of the class.

I'm mostly concerned with Maths, especially for the first half term until the school put them in sets - will DS be incredibly bored for the first half term? And if the lesson is pitched to the middle of the set, surely in a top set that leaves the top people bored? It's not an issue I have come across, as DD would have been at the bottom of bottom set (by quite some way) for the first half term of Y7, but there were TA's in the class to help her, I doubt they do the same for the top of top set IYSWIM.