Single-sex boarding schools

[Bonsoir]

Do you think that single-sex boarding schools perpetuate entrenched sexism?

No. The reverse. I went to one; and with no boys around there was no opportunity for men and women to be "compared" in any way work-wise. So I just assumed that I could do anything; it simply never occurred to me that men and women might be treated differently in the workplace.

I also went to one and agree with AmI from the girls point of view.

However I've sometimes had the impression (but no firsthand knowledge) that all-boy schools may be rather sexist.

Yes! They are total hothouses of

Girl Must Achieve and be gorgeous and anorexic. You will only achieve if we remove the dangerous men. However, whe men are there you don't have a hope so make sure you are good looking, and can cook, and are thin.

I think they can fight blatant sexism pretty well, but often fall victim themselves to perpetuating more subtle sexism - for example my girls' boarding school made great efforts to say we could do anything, but then failed to offer opportunities such as design/tech for GCSE or decent computer tuition, and made no efforts to counter the idea that maths was for geeks and the Chinese. On the plus side, it did have excellent science teachers, including the female head of Physics who explained that when she was at uni in London 30 years earlier, she was the only woman among 300 men and never had to buy her own lunch.
Times have changed, she said. Now you would be one of around 10 women out of 300 students. And you'll have to buy your own lunch.

And while careers guidance emphasised we could do anything, the line was always "how are you going to support yourself doing X" - not once was it ever suggested one might want to be able to afford to support a family. Talks were on medicine, law, and various arty careers - engineering, computing, government etc weren't covered.

Only having alumnae do Speech Day was also restricting in that we only had two very mildly famous ones, one of whom was only for whom she married.

Thing is, single-sex schools and their staff and pupils are still part of society. In some ways there was more obsession with looks, weight, and getting a boyfriend than there might have been if the lads from [nearby schools] had been hanging around all the time instead of only when they'd scrubbed up for a Saturday night dance.

No. No more than any other school. Have come across sexism and its reverse in day schools too. Depends on child and which phase it is in as well as parental ambience.

"However I've sometimes had the impression (but no firsthand knowledge) that all-boy schools may be rather sexist."

Yes, that was what provoked my OP. When I think of the men I know (several generations) who have been to the big name all boys boarding schools, they are all (without exception) MCPs. Not always overtly, but they are, underneath.

"Girl Must Achieve and be gorgeous and anorexic. You will only achieve if we remove the dangerous men. However, whe men are there you don't have a hope so make sure you are good looking, and can cook, and are thin."

Voice of experience?

First hand experience of them arriving in the sixth form of my co-ed school and then university. I couldn't believe the eating issues. They all looked amazing and had to take Prozac around exam time.

My SiL still bears the scars of the pressure. She is beautiful, has straight A's double first from Oxford (top of year in subject) Grade 8 piano and on and on. And is so stressed about her underachievement.

OP what sort of sexism are you thinking might exist?

Nothing in particular - I just want to know what others think. I met some people recently who were considering single sex boarding in England for their DC and it got me thinking about the sort of values that families who send their children to these schools are looking for.

SundaeGirl - I do think that there is an issue when girls/women get together (and have time to spare) of focusing hugely on appearance.

I think the kind of parents who send their girls are the sort looking for results.

The girls I think of all did really well academically and often excelled in other areas too. They were charming and pretty. Lots of them had breakdowns at around 25 and most of them had little issues with anorexia, self-esteem and so on. Very few would expect their husbands to do even a 65:35 split of childcare/house hold stuff - far fom it.

We send DS2 to one if the few remaining boys only full boarding schools left in the UK. I don't know what values we were looking for or even for that matter hold. We looked at two single sex schools, my DS would have had to full boarded at both, we liked the schools and felt comfortable there we did not feel like this at any of the mixed schools we looked at. Until I read you thread OP I hadn't really thought about what values we were looking for we or whether being all boys influenced the general ethos in our favour we just liked them. But probably because they held similar values to ours I guess. I am not a raving feminist going on about how women have been oppressed by men because that is not my experience.

I really couldn't be more convinced of the value of co-ed vs. single sex but even I would have to weigh that against the advantages of my DSs going to Eton or Winchester. The teaching and resources are just so, so incredible. I think I would still choose co-ed, I'm pretty sure I'd choose co-ed, but I can't be certain. Not a decision I'll ever be troubled by, though.

I went to a Top Public School. I was the first year of mixed girls and boys coming in at 13. And, fwiw, the bullying in all boys years was horrendous compared to ours.

When we looked at schools we werent especially choosing single sex I asked teachers which they felt was best and they were non committal. I work in a coed boarding school and it certainly has a different feel to it but thats not because it is fighting sexism at every turn. I don't think my DS is going to be turned into an entrenched sexist why should he? There are female teaching staff matrons HMs wife's all who he likes and respects he meets the sisters of friends and girls from other schools I doubt it even crosses his mind that women are anything but equal. The school would not promote anything else either. OP Im curious to know what the values your friends looking at boys schools had or were hoping to find obviously no school can filter our entrenched sexism if the parents.
I do think many send their DS's to single sex because they think boys will be better understood at them but not to turn them into sexists

There was no pressure in my top single sex boarding school to be thin or over achieve. Most people just got on with it tbh. Cool clothing was important but no more so than any other school I imagine.

The only disadvantage I felt was that when I left school I had no male friends, no real idea of how to deal with men and behaved in some bloody silly ways towards men that I wouldn't have if I had male friends I think.

re the eating disorders thing, you get them wherever you get a lot of high achieving, perfectionist girls, so academically selective independent schools are always going to have a high quota whether ss or coed. From my own days, I can think of a couple of co-ed boarding schools that seemed to have a lot of eating disorder problems and a few all girls ones with relatively few. within those , some yrs were definitely "problem years" for EDs whilst others were unscathed. We have to remember that ED's are not about "appearance" per se (i.e. looking good for boys). They're about control/ perfectionism/ warped sense of self-discipline.

I imagine my DC's will probably board for secondary. I'd be inclined to send both DS and (as yet hypothetical) DD co-ed. I would consider sending DD single sex, but what I definitely wouldnt do is send her somewhere that is boys to 16 and co-ed for the 6th form. My sceptical head says that then they're just bait to stop the boys wanting to switch schools at 16.

The culture in most single sex boys schools is definitely sexist, hg. The boys peers and competitors are all male and it is against them that the boy learns how he measures up. Women and girls don't feature. High praise for all traditional males values. School and team and personal identity formed away from women.

As I say, I was the first year of girls in an all-boys school. 30 girls in a school of 500. I saw it up close. And, no, it won't be any different now because it's to do with the prizes and sports and tradition (assuming the school is older than 1980s).

The idea that boys would be better 'understood' at an all boys school is a bizarre one. Teachers and those doing the 'understanding' are individuals, understanding of people or not. It sound like this is a question of values. The school don't value the things that appeal to and absorb teen girls and so would rather not divert resources and dilute identity with those things. Not difficult for a teen boy to pick up on and convert into... Sexism.

I went to a (very academic) all-girls' boarding school, where I was one of the high achievers. Last weekend I found my diary from age 12, which was entertaining to read but also tugged on the heart strings a bit now that I am the mother of a very bright little girl myself. One entry read "I am very disappointed today because I only got 94% in Latin."

At my school, good results were expected. However, I don't see the problem with that, if a child is capable of getting those results. I wouldn't want to push a child who was struggling, but I see nothing wrong with putting able children in an educational environment where their best is expected.

Several of my year group left for sixth form to go to the mixed (nationally recognised as outstanding) sixth form college and got all Es at A level, having got all As at GCSE. The reason was the amount of time they spent with the boys.

I wouldn't send my DCs to boarding school but I absolutely would send them to single-sex secondary schools.

"The girls I think of all did really well academically and often excelled in other areas too. They were charming and pretty. Lots of them had breakdowns at around 25 and most of them had little issues with anorexia, self-esteem and so on. Very few would expect their husbands to do even a 65:35 split of childcare/house hold stuff - far fom it."

Yes, SundaeGirl, that's the sort of entrenched sexism I'm thinking of.

DD was a day pupil at a all girls boarding school. DS was a boarder at a co-ed boarding school. DD & DS say you get pupils of both sexes with eating disorders so can't see it being a single sex school thing. Also schools are much better at pastoral care now so the issues that happened in the last should not be such of an issue now..., or at least they're dealt with earlier.

SundaeGirl I'm interested in your comments "boys peers and competitors are all male and it is against them that the boy learns how he measures up." perhaps you could expand on this because I'm not sure what you mean.

"High praise for all traditional males values" what sort of values are you talking about?
"prizes and sports and tradition" my DS's school is a little older than 1980's but again I'm not really sure what you mean. The school don't value the things that appeal to and absorb teen girls and so would rather not divert resources and dilute identity with those things.
"The school don't value the things that appeal to and absorb teen girls and so would rather not divert resources and dilute identity with those things. Not difficult for a teen boy to pick up on and convert into... Sexism." This is not what I meant when I said boys schools understand boys. It is widely accepted that boys learn differently from girls and at boys schools education is put across in a way that boys find particularly accessible. Many talk on MN about girls not being encourage to do sciences but what about boys not pursuing art and MFLs. In my DS1 mixed comp in art GCSE girls significantly out number boys many boys only take a MFL because they have no choice but at DS2 boys only boarding school lots take two or three MFL's, the art dept is far more popular that the DT dept. Also what things appeal to teen girls that would "divert recourses and dilute identity?" Some sports; netball maybe, extra curricular activities sewing embroidery cooking although at my DH old boys only school there is a thriving cooking club. Life has moved on Sundae I think you would find your experience of school has nothing in common with the experiences of boys currently in boys only boarding schools.

I completely agree with Happy.

We considered several schools for Ds, state and private, boarding and day, single sex and mixed. His primary level and form teacher from a mixed school were very clear that single sex would be sensible for him, and we came to that conclusion too.

Our final choices were Happy's Ds' school and the one he is now at. Of course there is a bit of joshing from time to time as he knows how to wind up his feminist mum but the schools, and I know them both as he has cousins at the other

Whoops, pressed send too soon.

Are not sexist. One of the most respected teachers at Ds's school is an internationally respected physicist. The boys are very very proud of her and speak of her with awe. The art dept is proud of its record sending boys to top art schools. They do mfl in droves. The drama is very good too. There is a hen club. The hens are lovely. The sport is really good too. But it caters for all sorts and you get admiration for being excellent at whatever it might be, derision for being a sexist lout.

It's not quite so old as Happy's school but certainly will have provided administrators for the Empire. Things have changed.

Life hasn't moved on that much. To send the message that girls and boys should be separated for either to do well is to encourage them to believe the extent of their differences is greater than the reality. This can increase sexism.

I've got DSs and I've already said that I would be tempted by Eton or Winchester because of the extraordinary learning experiences, so please don't take this too far, hg. It's been my experience that single sex education is in general not a good idea for the individual and definitely not for society.