A few questions about Grammar schools

[BelleTheBeatnik]

DD1 is a few years off secondary yet, but as we're expecting to move soon-ish (from York to Oxfordshire) we've been discussing schools. We're not really keen on private schools, so have decided to rule them out unless we have suitable no alternative.

However, at a recent Parent's Evening, the teacher suggested Grammar schooling, as she thinks DD1 - bright and academic, not particularly sporty/artistic/musical - will thrive in that sort of enviroment.

I'm not really asking about suggestions for good schools, because we're not 100% about the exact area we're moving to yet. However, we have no experience of the Grammar system - and so I've turned to the wisdom of the Mumsnet!

So, to those of you that work at/have children at/went to a Grammar school... (And I appreciate that every school/child is different, so it's difficult to answer these questions.)

What are the pros/cons?
What do they offer that is significantly different to other types of schools?

Only a few things are putting me off. I'm worried about the pressure students are put under to achieve certain grades - while I of course want DD to try her best, I don't want her to feel like not getting a certain grade makes her a failure. I also worry about the lack of diversity, because I think school is a great place to interact with different types of people, which teacher children to be tolerance of different. Is this an issue with Grammar school, or am I just picking faults for no reason?

Sorry for the long OP. TIA for any replies :)

It will very much depend on what the system is where you live- is it like Kent, where approx 25% go to grammar school, and therefore a very able child may have a reduced peer group in a comp, or like Essex, where only about 5% go, the exams are therefore very competitive and the pressure is high?

Fellow Yorkie here who was also grammar school educated.

Personally I was around the cut off mark for an area with a small grammar school cohort. I hated school. I was pretty much the bottom for everything and constantly made to feel small for not knowing things. I was also pushed at a pace I couldn't keep up with and pressured into doing well. These things, however, would not be an issue for someone comfortably in the middle of the cohort who would thrive on the pressure. Because of this I would only consider grammar when the school is concerned about the whole child and not just academic results. Obviously if your DD were to be comfortably at the top of the class I wouldn't dismiss them.

If you were to move to an area with schools like those in York then I think your DD would do just as well as anywhere else. My DN is at Manor and has had the opportunity to do a range of academic subjects including latin as part of the gifted and talented programme. In terms of educating the whole child I would chose a successful comp over a grammar.

DS1 is in year 8 at a Grammar in Lincolnshire.He is really happy.He passed 11+ with very high score having worked at 4 practice papers of each test(we had moved from Ireland and he was thrown in at the deep end).However this is how ds1 is.He is happy at school,it is fine for him to be himself.I don't get a feeling he is being overly pressured.However I expect there is a competitive element.
DS2 is only 5 and very different to ds1 at the same age.Grammar school may suit him or it may not.I suppose you need to look at the school as each one is different.
There is a lot of competition,I think.I was shocked at the tutoring and pressure put on the children.

I have worked in two grammars and in part that is why my children do not attend them.

1. facilities not as good as the local comps, although that is variable .
2. dull teaching and anything else is discouraged
3. resistant to change
4. students perceived to be low ability generally sidelined , this means students likely to get a B or sometimes an A.
5. poor pastoral care amidst lots of bullying
6. socially poor, mainly kids from prep schools and tutored state school children
7. teaching to the test, for example frameworks for gcse students to type coursework into which were very prescriptive
8. Boys school could be quite brutal if you were not sporty
9. range of options subjects quite limited.

However behaviour is generally very good and sporting achievement high.

Sometimes good for those students who struggle socially in a comp.

Oxfordshire's schools are Comprehensive - they don't have Grammar schools. Some are very good - but it's what you would expect; the schools in middle class areas do well but those serving big council estates do less well. However, there are a lot of private schools around, which cream off a lot of academic children, although obviously not all.

Bullying in the girl's grammar was horrific coupled with the pressured environment there was a much higher rate of eating disorders and self harm at the grammar than the comprehensives I have worked at. I could perhaps be persuaded to send my son to the grammar but never my daughter.

I live in Kent and went to grammar school and did my teacher training in another grammar school. IME it's great if your DD is very academic - I found school a hard working competitive atmosphere. I think it depends on your DD and the school though. I went to a very very academic grammar school and tbh found myself quite average/below average for the school. If I worked rally hard I never seemed to do any better in lessons and opinions of me from teachers than if I didn't do much.I was never in the same league as the oxbridge people and found it actually worked the opposite way as I gave up working thinking I'd never be as good as the clever ones (which was prety much everyone) no matter what I did. I felt alot how bamboozle did.

Conversely, the school I did my teacher training at was very much more a holistic school and I think I would have done much better there.

That is interesting NiceHamione.Are your 2 at a state school or private?
Were both Grammars in same area?

No different areas, my children are at state schools.

I think for certain children they can be good. Children who struggle socially may do better if they genuinely can't cope with the environment of a comp. That is if they can find a cluster of similar boys . If I also had a very sporty and very academic boy who was a behaviour concern in a state comp, I may consider it.

If you're moving to Oxon you'll need to be v close to the Bucks border, eg Henley.

We live near the Buck/Oxford border.. My elder daughter goes to an Oxfordshire comp and is very happy. It's a well managed school, obviously isn't single-sex and doesn't overburden her with homework (compared to her GS friends) so she has time for her first love - her pony.

My son will go to one of the Bucks boys' grammars in the autumn. He's a different character: very academic, slightly geekish and plays rugby to a high standard. He'll fit in perfectly.

Anyway, unless you live near somewhere like Henley (as mentioned) or Thame then it won't be an option for you.

Belle both my children are at grammar; I wasn't bothered if they went to grammar school, but my DH was very keen for them to go.

From being ambivalent about them going, I am a convert! Our school is one of the best in our county and both my boys are enjoying their time there. They are different characters - one academic (although he doesn't have to work particularly hard, grrr!) non sporty and one bright and exceptionally sporty.

The school fits them both and I am glad they went there rather than our local comprehensives.

As said above, you'd have to really pick your spots if you were seriously thinking about grammar schools when living in Oxfordshire. Reading's commutable from one corner, Bucks from another. There are some good schools in Oxon though.

I have one in grammar school, one in a comp. The academic standards don't compare. I'm sure that sounds horribly snobby.

My own girls' grammar and my dds' had/has no peer pressure about looks - NaiceHamione's experience is not typical.

Good for academic kids but not nec otherwise.

Oh, and no bullying in either.

Thanks for all your replies - plenty of food for thought. It looks like I was ignorant about the school system in Oxfordshire, though!

I was thinking today, that in certain areas the comprehensive schools are hindered by having a Grammar closeby - because the perceived 'clever' children are under-represented, and so the pupils aren't seeing examples of academic achievement. Not sure if I explained that very well (half trying to watch Planet Earth ) - but Ripon is an example I know of. Does anyone live in an area like this? Although I'm assuming this isn't the case in Oxfordshire, if they don't have Grammar schools.

The closest town to us has a Girls Grammar and a Boys Grammar and a very highly regarded Comp.(smile)

Yes, I would say that is the case in Kent. Our nearest comp is effectively a sec mod - tho a good one.

yes belle I live in an area like that - students either get into the grammar, pay for private or go to the local comp which is just everyone who can't afford private and arn't bright enough for grammar - in general don't have very good names for themselves in the local area and have alot of disruptive students etc. I went to one as part of my teacher training and it wasn't a comp in the true sense of the word.

Well I'd say a pretty useful method would be: don't tutor. If she gets in in the ordinary course of things (bit of parental interest, encouragement and a modicum of practice for the tests) then pressure shouldn't be an issue, superselective or not (assuming no personal problems).

Don't recognise Hamione's experience at all (and I have, or have had, seven at a superselective grammar - three girls, four boys - so my experience is relatively broad).

It's ridiculous that there are comprehensives out there which are essentially Secondary Moderns, isn't it? Surely that just points out those children as less priviliged, and leads to self-fufilling prophecies?

Agree with your point Yellowtip, tutoring for the entry exam won't help you keep up once you're actually there. But I was wondering if grammar schools focus on lower grades as a 'bad' thing, significantly more than non-selective schools do?

WHY DO SO MANY POSTERS ASSUME THAT A TUTORED DC WILL STRUGGLE SHOULD THEY BE ACCEPTED?

It is an argument that gets presented quite regularly in threads about tutoring. My DS scored about 60% in his first mock paper. After 6 months of home tutoring he was averaging 87% to 93%. He was offered a place at a highly selective school and despite his peers being mostly prep boys, he was recently ranked in top 20% of his year in their mid year exams.

If he had some of the MNetters present as parents the kid would be at his local comp because, in these people's opinion, a kid that only scored 60% without tuition is 'obviously' not suitable for a selective education.

What a lot of people miss is that the difficulty in getting in usually bear no relation to the pressure once you are in.

For example, when I was applying to Uni my offer was BCC. The demand for places has meant that AAB offers are now typical. This does not mean anyone with less than AAB will struggle to keep up. The offer grades have merely been hiked to reflect the demand for places.

Same with 11+. One off DS's friends got in via the waiting list and at the recent mid year exam he was ranked near the bottom of the year. The parents shouldn't have placed him in such a selective school I hear you say. Well, even though he is near the bottom the kid is still predicted As for his GCSEs.

A 'struggling' kid there would be a top student elsewhere so its a bit silly labelling such kids as not being suitable for a selective education.

Just to point out that Gloucestershire also has Grammars, and a border with Oxon!

Fiddlesticks to the mock papers PooshTun.

I've noticed your other thread. How many DC do you have and how old are they? I'm confused. I thought you had only one aged 5 who was already being tutored?