Short school skirts "sending the wrong message"

[BeingFluffy]

DD (13) at a Comp had assembly today for girls only. The woman teacher was going on about how some girls wear very short skirts and it "sends the wrong message". From what DD was saying she seemed to be making a link between girls' skirt length and sexual violence. I agree that some girls wear skirts that are no more than belts and it does not look particularly smart, but I really object to that apparently making them more at risk of sexual violence or paedophiles which seemed to be the suggestion.
I feel that I should complain about this but wonder if DD misinterpreted what she was saying, as I really can't believe a teacher said this. Should I just shut up and ignore it, or fire off an email?

AThing I often wear tailored trousers with a shirt or jumper to work. Do you think I must look hideous then? It seems a reasonable sort of combination to me

I'm with hopefullyrecovering in this. I don't see anything wrong with short skirts per se, provided that they are not inappropriately short.

I have 3 daughters at high school and have always been of the opinion that a properly turned up or tailored short skirt looks better than a hideously rolled up effort. They are about 3 inches above the knee which provides suitable modesty, they are worn with opaque tights, and although they have a rear split, they do not show everything to anybody walking behind.

I many ways I think that short pleated or floaty skirts are a bigger problem than tighter or fitted ones.

There are a shocking number of comments stating that wearing a short skirt means that the girls 'don't respect themselves'.

I'm not here to say whether short skirts are good or bad but I just want to say how I felt when I was at school and was one of the girls who wore skirts so short you could see the lines on the tops of my tights.

For starters, I definitely wasn't 'lacking self-respect'. If anything I had way too much self-respect. I was confident and proud, I knew what I wanted and I knew what I didn't want.

I wore a short skirt for three reasons. One, because it did make me feel a bit sexy and that made me feel good about myself, especially important when you're body is developing and you're trying to cope with the changes. Note that this does NOT automatically make me slutty. Two, because I was still developing my body confidence and felt I looked bad unless there was a certain skirt/shirt ratio and my school insisted on tucking your shirt in meaning I had to role my skirt up further to compensate. And three, for me, having a shorter skirt was a way of guaging and showing my confidence. When I first entered secondary school I hated skirts, and would've been mortified at wearing one. As I grew more confident, I grew more comfortable wearing shorter and shorter skirts.

Of course my school had a rule - ours was that skirts should be no more than two inches above the knee when kneeling. But obviously that didn't make any difference.

And to the person who said their school was introducing kilts to make it harder to roll skirts up? What the hell? Kilts are BY FAR the easiest type of skirt to roll up as they fall perfectly however short you roll them.

Interesting post, doodle.

I don't like the idea that short skirts means 'girls don't respect themselves'. I think that's code for 'look a bit slutty/tarty' which rests on a terribly reductive, sexist view of womanhood. That it's up to women to police male sexual urges and up to young women to keep themselves pure and unsullied. It's a very dangerous philosophy. I'm sure most people who think/say these things wouldn't dream of blaming rape victims for being raped, but maybe haven't thought that deeply about where such a strong reaction to teenage girls wearing short skirts comes from.

'But the short skirt on a school uniform does feature in a certain kind of Lolita porn. So the head might be worried that young girls are looking like pornstars rather than schoolchildren.' - nkf

Just saying, if you're going down that line of thought then you may as well ban teddy bears, pigtails, lollipops, icepops, ties and all the other parts of the 'slutty schoolgirl' costume. But no one will, because that's just going too far.

There are also some types of people who get turned on by the thought of people in babygrows with dummys. Can't understand it myself but shall we also ban babygrows and dummys then?

Thanks for all the interesting comments to my original post. I contacted the teacher and she was horrified that DD and her friends had interpreted the message as saying they were "sluts" or that women's or girls' clothing could encourage harassment and violence.

She had indeed said that clothes send a message and used a number of images in the presentation including those of what was "normal" in other cultures and also a clip from TOWIE to show how superficial it is judge people on appearances, but she had sought to encourage debate and for the girls to take responsibility for what is appropriate or not in a school setting.

We agreed that the girls in DD's class were probably too young to tease out the arguments and they had just interpreted the message as a criticism of them (although DD and her friends are compliant with the current rules). I had no idea where the "slut" and "inappropriate clothing invites harassment" came from as they are not something anyone in my household would think or say, but apparently some of DD's friends have that view - some have parents that are from cultures that have a different view of female sexuality and what is acceptable.

Anyway the school is getting a new uniform soon and has cracked down on standards of appearance; they want the kids to comply voluntarily and don't want uniform to become an issue. We will have to see what happens...

Doodle-interesting post. You say that wearing a skirt do short your gusset was on show made you feel "a little bit sexy". As a teacher at a secondary school, I would say that wearing clothes which make you feel sexy whilst at school is simply not an appropriate thing to do. I am pretty proud of my cleavage, and wearing a top with a deep V neck makes me feel a bit sexy. I would not do so for work though. One of the things school uniform is for, surely, is to help kids learn about wearing appropriate clothing in different circumstances. If one if the girls I teach refused to pull her ludicrously short skirt down because it made her feel sexy, I would still insist she did it. To me, showing the gusset on your tights says "I don't mind if you look at my crotch"

"One, because it did make me feel a bit sexy "

Which IMO makes it inappropriate for school - and the office as well.

EvilTwins - nononono, the lines at the top of the tights, on the legs, not the gusset. Seeing someone's gusset is definitely not sexy....that is just strange and embarassing. : /

And maybe sexy was the wrong word to use but I think everyone dresses for other people, and not just themselves? Even if it's just buying a nice fitted and tailored suit for the office.

I do agree that 'sexy' clothes shouldn't be worn in most workplaces. I would not wear short skirts at work because, even if I like them, I know they are not professional and are not appropriate fo rmy line of work.

If schools uniforms are there 'to help kids learn about wearing appropriate clothing in different circumstances' then yes, I would say that means children definitely shouldn't wear short skirts and such. However, I think that is where this argument truly lies.

When I was in school, I did not see school as somewhere to dress up and practice for future employment. I saw it as somewhere I was forced to go each day, somewhere where I learnt about myself, about others and about growing up (and of course about my different school subjects too!). I didn't see uniform as anything more than something that made it easy for teachers to identify children on school trips, something that made us all look the same and so was supposed to cause less arguments over class and material goods (as opposed to American schools where children can be teased for not having designer clothes) and something that stifled creativity and ability to express oneself. And obviously, teachers would prefer if we looked kinda smart but no-one really cared about that.

I'm not saying that this view is a good or bad view point (and to be honest my views have changed a little since then and are still evolving) however, that is what my friends and I thought a few years back and I imagine that's what many children think now too. And to clarify, we were very much aware of how to dress in different situations - we all dressed properly for work experience and job/sixth form/university interviews. Not taking school uniforms seriously did not affect our ability to dress for other smart situations and establishments, we just didn't view school as one of these establishments.

Also, although I don't particularly want people looking at my crotch, you can't put a ban on people looking at other people or thinking certain things if they keep it to themselves. And I don't think I should have to dress a certain way just to avoid random strangers on the street thinking something in their own heads particularly as I think for the most part there will always be people who look at other people 'inappropriately', whether they're wearing something revealing or not. So I've come to the conclusion that you have to be okay with the above, as long as people don't actually act on those thoughts. If they do, that is obviously wrong.

If you ignore the crotch part and just focus on cleavage, you will get people looking whatever you're wearing, unless you wear a oversized knitted jumper. Should I have to wear a big jumper just so that someone else should never find me attractive?

Aaaand, at Bunbaker - your comment suggests that clothes that make one 'feel sexy' are inappropriate for the office.

But, I'm pretty sure a lot of men feel sexy in a good suit. A lot of men LOOK sexy in a good suit. In my opinion they look better in suits than in a lot of other clothes...

So...we should stop men wearing suits to work just because they FEEL sexy?

I don't think that's really what you were thinking of when you commented but it's the same rules isn't it? Arguing that skirts are too revealing for school may be possible but I'm not sure whether you can argue that things should be banned based on whether someone feels sexy in it becuase a) different people feel sexy in different things and b) that ruling isn't fair on everyone (see: men and suits).

My husband has never felt sexy in a suit. I don't think men feel sexy in the same way women do. When at work, they tend to be focusses on impressing the boss, not snaring a well paid co-worker...

Well, obviously everyone is different but I think at least a fair amount of men do. A lot of the men I know do anyways.

And of course, there is a difference between wanting to feel sexy when you're out and wanting to 'snare co-workers'.

I'm sure if I worked in an office environment I would want to feel at least a little sexy when I was there, just because I'd like to feel at least a little sexy pretty much anytime I'm not slouching on the sofa in a t-shirt. It's just one thing that makes me feel good about myself. It certainly doesn't mean I want to 'snare' all the people that I meet throughtout the day....quite the opposite as I already have a partner and I'm not the cheating type.

My husband says the woman in his office dress like ......

And now summer is on the way they may as well be on the beach. I mean, it's so unprofessional.

Doodle, I want to look beautiful and classy not sexy.

A visitor at work the other day told me I looked elegant- made my day!

One of the girls in the 6th form at my school wears a tailored dress to school sometimes, with a little cardigan. She looks beautiful, and also cool, but the dress is in no way revealing. She looks a hell of a lot better than the girls who wear tiny skirts.

Oh yes, some of our sixth formers wear those dresses and they look lovely - really elegant. So much better than the ones who wear skirts that are slightly too short and slightly too tight which they then spend the day adjusting because they're worried they're revealing too much!

I really hope the teacher wasn't equating short skirts = sexual violence.

I think the skirt thing is an issue though but mainly about respect for others.

If I wanted to be affronted with arses I'd be an extra for the human centipede.

I'm with doodlecloud on this. Schools have a right to impose a uniform code, and to set rules as to skirt length. But have a separate talk for girls on what messages their clothing sends feels weird and sexist.

I'm not sure what messages I was sending when I was 13 and an older boy groped my breasts in the school corridor, when boys would ping my bra strap in lessons or or when another boy fondled my bottom on the school bus. Or, when at same age or possibly even younger at 12, grown men would wolf whistle at me in the street (most of the time I'd be wearing my huge, long, beige raincoat - impossibly sexy obviously)

But the message that the school was sending me was that I was just another anonymous pupil in a throng of 1500, and I certainly didn't feel I could approach anyone about it.

Schools would do a lot better to lecture the boys as to what constitutes sexual assault and make sure they are not massive anonymous places and that every pupil has someone approachable to talk to if they are having problems. Also to come down hard an anyone doing stuff that is actually illegal.

Colleger, that's completely fine but obviously not everyone will feel the same way.

Nowadays I'm actually one of the girls who wears those tailored dresses AND a cardigan! Some of my dresses are still a bit short but very much in a pretty way and not a sexy/slutty way...they make me feel beautiful and classy but actually, they also make me feel a bit sexy too because I think looking classy is sexy. Maybe the line between feeling good about oneself and feeling sexy are just too blurred nowadays? I mean, the meanings of words do tend to change over time, no matter how annoying that is...

Having brought up sixth form clothes I have a point that bugged me sooo much in sixth form. The rules always seem to be about individual garments and not about the actual 'look' of someone which was what the school was trying to control when they brought in the rule about different garments in the first place. Although I understand that it's hard to have rules that aren't specific it meant that I wasn't allowed to wear shorts because they were too short even though they didn't look trashy whilst other people were allowed to wear skin tight leggings and trashy slogan t-shirts which didn't break the rules but looked even more unprofessional!

Maybe the shorts were not the best example but more recently I was working at a Primary School and had the same problem. I wanted to wear a nice pair of black opaque tights with a floral tea dress. I found I couldn't because all dresses had to be below the knee and mine was just above. I originally thought that was fair enough but then I found the girl next door wearing black slightly see-through leggings and, again, a tight t-shirt. She was allowed to wear the leggings because the t-shirt just about covered her ass but everything was still very much visible and even if she hadn't been working with kids, it still wouldn't have looked at all professional.

Even though I hate leggings, I ended up having to buy a pair so I could wear my dresses even though when you're wearing an almost-knee-length dress, it doesn't make a difference if you're wearing leggings or tights. And the other girl and a couple of teachers too carried on wearing leggings which allowed you to see their panties, tags and all, whenever they bent over.

beingfluffy - I'm relieved to hear the teacher didn't intend the girls to think that they were responsible for inviting sexual harassment. And glad that she was concerned to hear how her message had been received. Just shows how careful you have to be talking to girls about this kind of thing - because that conversation doesn't exist in isolation, it will be heard in the context of all the other messages girls get about their role in society, some of which are Not Good.

I agree that one has to be very careful when discussing matters of this nature, especially when it appears that they've been singled out in a 'special assembly', as if it's an issure that affects only them.

Surely it would have been better to address all pupils about the appropriateness of dress and the situation in which it's being worn?

As has already been said if the majority of schools focused on the issues that really matter such as providing outstanding lessons and dealing with bullying and disruption the majority of schools would be much much better. It's just so much easier to create merry heaven over skirt length and a sloppy tie than it is over the issues that matter. The comp we removed dd from was just like this. Completely skewed priorities.

I agree, don't get me started on the fuss they make about ties!

Actually, I have mixed feeling about this. I think elaborate "smart" school uniform is ridiculous. And usually only imposed because parents like it. But if it exists, it ought to be enforced.