Appeals - some specific questions for those that have been thought it and a place to chat for those who are going through it now?

[Elaborate]

We are currently going through the appeals process for our DS.

I wonder if anyone who has been through it could answer a few questions?

~How long was your appeal form - ours was 4000 words . Is that too much do you think? The form had seven sections.
~Did you have a letter supporting your case from your existing school? If so, did the appeal panel take notice or did they not allow it to be heard?
~How formal was the appeal itself? Was it job interview-like?
~If you were going thorugh the process again, what would you do again/avoid?
~If you won, what sort of grounds did you have (if they aren't too personal )
~Any other tips??

For those that are currently in the process, how are you finding it? What do you think your chances are? Have you found any killer information?!

Lastly, but importantly, a big thanks to prh47bridge, Panel and Admission for guiding us all through this process

Bump

Some feedback from someone who has been through it...

Our form was quite long. I just looked for it but couldn't find it quickly. I think it was about 3 - 4 sides of A4, typed.

We didn't have a letter from the existing school (do you mean Primary?). We had letters from the Vicar (it was a C of E school and we were applying for a foundation place), my husband's employer (transport and flexibility were a key issue) and from my older daughter, as keeping our children together was of paramount importance to us. I was a bit sceptical about this last one, but we were advised to do this by the school to which we were appealing. My reason to think this through carefully was that, if the appeal had failed, I would not have wanted DD1 to have felt any responsibility for it.

The appeal itself was very formal. We were in a medieval hall bigger than the whole of our house, sitting at a table which was at least 20ft long. The panel sat along one side, we sat on the other, with the school at one end and the clerk at the other. Although the panel were kind and went to some lengths to put the parents at ease, it was very intimidating.

The best thing we did was to prepare very thoroughly. Although I never asked specific advice on here I read through past threads repeatedly and studied the process in some detail. I also bought the Ben Rooney book which is sometimes recommended here. It wasn't terribly useful but at least I felt prepared. We also rehearsed our case, paying attention to the main points and thinking about questions like "If we could only say one thing, what would it be?" This was useful at the end of the appeal when they asked us if there was anything we wanted to add.

Although we didn't do this, you need to be very careful not to be negative about the school that has been allocated. It's very tempting but not relevant. Remember that you don't know much about the panel - where their children go/went to school etc...

We did win. Our situation was that the admission requirements had changed between DD1's entry and DD2's (they are only one academic year apart). We live 20 miles from the school and although people will say that transport is not relevant, it was very important over that kind of distance because public transport is not an option (we produced documentation - bus timetables etc - to support this). We don't have a C of E school nearer and that was part of our argument. Our argument was based on transport, need to keep our children together (we talked about closeness and this was supported by the vicar), our work arrangements (travel is a part of work for both of us), and the way in which the changed admission process had put us at a disadvantage.

Incidentally, later we realised that there had been mistakes and anomalies in the school's administration of the admission process which we could have used had our appeal not been successful.

I hope this helps - sorry it's a bit of an essay :)

The appeal letter can be any length that you want to make it. My concern would be as to whether at 4000 words you are just repeating things or whether it is all totally relevant.
The panel will have the information approximately a week before the appeal date so they will have the chance to study the information but I would definitely ask yourself whether it is all pertinent and whether you are repeating yourself.
I am somewhat surprised that you say the form had 7 sections, could you say what they were? Normally the admission authority document just gives you space to say what you want not put it into specific boxes.
The situation regarding letters from your current school or teachers is quite clear in the code, they should not be doing it. So whilst the panel will look at any information supplied I would say that given the panel know the law, they will not give much if any weight to such a letter.
The appeal itself has to follow a format which is that the admission authority makes its case not to admit, followed by questions from the parents and panel (usually called stage 1) following which the panel make a decision as to whether the admission authority have made their case not to admit further pupils. The 2nd stage is for each individual parent to make their case to the panel on their own individual circumstances, again with questioning from the admission authority and the panel members. Once the panel have heard all the cases for admission to the school they make decisions in private. There are various variations on the process but in secondary appeals it is quite usual for all the parents to be present when the admission authority make their case, so that everybody hears it once and once only. That needs a good chair to keep the parents under control and not all ask questions at once. How long that lasts is very much dependent on the level of questions from the parents and panel., but the case for the admission authority typically takes 30 minutes to lay out to the panel. Your own individual stage 2 appeal are commonly set up in sequence, say every 20 minutes, but there is no time limit and that is why sometimes things overrun. Please bear with the panel they need to give every parent as much time and effort as needed, so they go away believing that that they have had every opportunity to present their case. Please do not allow yourself to be pushed into the idea you only have 20 minutes or whatever the time scale is. If that does happen then you should at the end of the appeal be asked whether you have had the opportunity to say everything that you want to say and the answer is no, I have not. If you say yes, then you can't then raise it as an issue with the LGO.
I am under no illusion that it is a legal right for every parent to appeal if they wish to and they should, you have absolutely no idea what might emerge at the appeal, which is another good reason for being their in person.

Thanks both. I am sure I will have more questions when I have had a think!

Janey, your account was very detailed and helpful. I hope my LA doesn't have quite such an off-putting setting for the Appeal!

admission, my authority's appeal form is here if you want to take a look. I'd love to hear your views .

As for disallowing supporting letters from our existing school, would you be able to point me in the direction of where it talks about in the code? I had a quick look at the 28-page School Admissions Appeal Code Feb 2012 pdf and couldn't see anything, so maybe I have the wrong document?

Thanking you

Admission is referring to paragraph 2.13 of the Admission Appeals Code, although I would suggest that the new wording only prevents teachers from supporting appeals for places at their own school. I am not convinced it prevents teachers from supporting appeals for places at other schools. But I agree with Admission that most panels will give little if any weight to such letters as they are not generally proper independent evidence.

Just to add a little to Admission's thorough answer...

In stage 1 the panel wants to see if the admission arrangements conform with the Admissions Code and relevant law, if they have been administered correctly and if there will be prejudice to the school if additional pupils are admitted. If there are other parents in the room with you when the admission authority presents its case you must raise anything you have on these issues at that stage - your child has been placed in the wrong admissions category, the home to school distance has been measured incorrectly, the school has been enlarged since the capacity was set, etc. In some cases parents have held back information at this stage thinking it would give them an advantage. It won't. Worse, there have been some cases where parents have been prevented from presenting their information at stage 2 on the grounds that it should have been given at stage 1. That shouldn't happen but you don't want to take the risk. Even if it only relates to your child I would bring it up at stage 1, although the chair of the panel may then ask you to bring it up at stage 2.

If you are the only parent in the room when the admission authority presents its case the panel may not bother making any decision at the end of stage 1. They never have in any of the individual appeals I have attended! Provided they follow the correct process when they do make their decisions that isn't a problem.

We went through it last year, so you have my sympathy! My ds is happily settled in year 7 at the school we appealed for, and it was well worth it.

My appeal letter was three sides of A4, but it was bullet pointed so very easy to read. I did have letters from the primary school, but I can't know how much it helped. We has one from teh SENCO because it was relevant to our case, one from the class teacher with my ds's expected SAT results (we were appealing for a GS) and a very short supportive letter from the head. The chair did reassure me that they had all read everything I submitted though.

I don't think I woud do anything differently, but I guess that's because I was successful!

The hearing was more formal than any job interviews I've ever had, but the Chair did try to put us at ease too. The other two panel members barely spoke at all. One of them was quite straight faced and didnt give anything away, but the lay member kept smiling reassuringly at me so I liked her!

I'd rather not go into the grounds we won on as they are quite specific so wouldn't help you anyway, but I had evidence for the evidence of why the school would suit my child best.

My only tip would be to ask the school you are appealing for any questions you think might help in any way.

Outraged's point about asking the school is a good one. We actually had a lot of support from the school, both before and during the appeal. At the start of our appeal the Head explained that we'd been very unfortunate and that they supported our appeal because our DD1 had been one of the first admitted under the old rules, and DD2 was about 150th on the waiting list...

The school was oversubscribed by about 200, I believe, and there were 40 appeals, 15 of which were sibling appeals (there was no sibling rule). 12 were successful in the end, and the admission guidelines were altered again for the following year's intake.

The issue over school staff writing letters of support has always been one of transparency and fairness, that is a letter for one pupil is not seen to be fair on every other pupil in the school, who does not get a similar letter. I know that some LAs also used the employment of the staff as a reason not to send any letters in that they said that they were undermining the authority of the LA by in effect going against the wish not to admit of the LA.
PRH is right that in the new code paragraph 2.13 applies partially to the situation. The problem is that it is brand new and nothing has been tested in law and there are quite a lot of sentences in the code that could be interpreted in different ways. I know this is one such paragraph and the DfE have been asked to clarify what they mean. I would not hold your breath waiting for an early reply.
As far as the form is concerned I have no problem with section A that is all factual information which an LA doing the job properly to ensure a smooth running appeal should collect. However paragraph 2.5 of the new regulations states that Admission Authorities must not limit the grounds on which an appeal is heard. I think this form does exactly that both in a general sense and under specific questions. So for instance questions 1, 2 and 3 all ask for a yes / no answer, which in effect is then going to reduce any chance of you winning a case on those grounds. How is anybody for instance going to know whether they think an error has been made, when half the time that only becomes apparent during an appeal.
Whilst I am sure that what the LA are trying to do is give some structure and help to people who want to appeal I am not at all convinced that the LGO would be happy with this but as with all things, until someone takes it to the relevant authority as a complaint then it will will all be opinion on my and others behalf and I could be completely wrong.

Thanks again Janey and Outraged; useful stuff to bear in mind. I'm pleased things workd out for you. I am getting the idea that each appeal will have its own specific circumstances, but it is good to hear your experiences

prh47bridge and admissions - thanks for your expert views once again. I agree the relevant section of the code is ambigious about support from the child's current school. In a way, it feels like a letter from the Headteacher should be valid, because if not everyone gets one, then those that do might have more compelling reasons for appeal. However, I must not put too much by it as if Appeal Panels are used to ignoring such letters, they may well do even if the new code might seem to allow it.

As for our LA's form, your comments are very interesting admission. It does seem our LA is a bit out on a limb with the way it sets out its appeal form. We certainly felt constrained by two of the Yes/No answers and said yes, but then went on to say actually, we weren't sure and explained why. It also seems odd to have sections on travel and friendship groups when you understandably say that those grounds rarely win on appeal. I may do some thinking on that at a later date...

I agree with all that Admission and prh47bridge have said.

I find that appeal form quite bizarre. I assume that the LEA is trying to help parents identify all the factors that they might want to raise at appeal, but nonetheless several of the questions could (as I see it) be criticised for leading the parents in various directions (and giving that forced choice between yes and no) and introducing things like friendship groups and travel difficulties which have (except in rare cases) no bearing on school admissions and appeals.

PanelChair - interesting that you find the form bizarre, as I do too, given what the usual advice on appeals is (ie that friends/transport are not significant grounds). I assume my LA has to abide by the national Appeals Code, and can't have it's own?? Is there much room for discretion by the LA in this, or is my LA sort of misleading us into thinking we have more grounds than we actually do?
Hmm!

Re letters of support from the child's existing school - if they were disallowed, would they be removed from the papers bundle before the Appeals Panel saw them, or would they be allowed to see them but not be able to take the information into account? Or will this vary according to each LA?

Has anyone on here had such a letter?

Yes, all LAs in England must abide by the same Appeals Code. They can't make up their own. Room for discretion is very limited - basically anything that says "must" is compulsory, anything that says "should" is a recommendation which they don't have to follow but may have to justify to the LGO why they didn't if someone things they have been disadvantaged.

The appeal panel should see all the evidence regardless of whether or not it is allowed. It is then up to the appeal panel to decide if any of the evidence should be ignored.

It is definitely for the appeal panel to decide how much weight to be given to every piece of evidence that is submitted, legal or otherwise. I seem to remember an LGO judgement over an LA removing what they considered inappropriate information and getting their hands slapped hard.
I suspect Elaborate that you might be right that the form does sort of mislead parents into thinking that they have better grounds than they actually do have, but it is up to individual panels to make their mind up on the strength of either a distance appeal or an appeal around friends.

As an appeal panel member I'd be a bit taken aback to have 4000 words to study. Not least because there may be many more appeals in each session to preview.

Our written statement was about 2 sides of a4. However, my presentation on the day lasted for an hour!

The setting surprised me with its formality. It was in a vast hotel conference room. 3 members of panels sat at one long table, clerk sat on another to the side and LEA rep on a table at other side. Dh and I were at a table at the opposite end of room, felt like a mile away! They made no effort to put us at ease when we arrived, so it was a bit intimidating.

Well the panels I am on always do their best to make the parents feel at ease, so I hope your experience is an exception! I have never seen a presentation longer than a few minutes - I imagine you must have a had a lot to say - did you win?

Schools nightmare, my appeal hearing lasted well over an hour, and the information that I sent them was like a book! I don't think you should worry, do what you think is right, it is your case.

It's not true that the panel won't consider anything produced on the day. We would never refuse to look at or hear evidence.
The setting is sometimes a bit formal just by virtue of the location, but all my fellow panellists bend over backwards to be as welcoming as possible and to put parents at their ease.
My experience is that the vast majority of parents have very little to say and we try to draw out of them as much as we can.
I've been a panellist for 4 years and never had an individual presentation last an hour, though there is no reason why not. We usually schedule them 30 minutes apart so you might want to warn the clerk as later parents will be waiting.

The panel should not refuse to consider stuff you produce on the day but they may decide to adjourn the hearing to give the admission authority time to consider the new evidence.

The parents have never spoken for an hour or anywhere near that at any of the appeals I have been to (even when I was the parent!) but you should take however long you need to get your case across.

I agree that anyone presenting their case needs to explain it fully. I still, though, baulk at the idea of a 4000 word document or a presentation that lasts an hour.

In all my experience of appeals, parents have generally managed to make all their points (and ask questions of the LEA and respond to questions from the LEA or the panel) in far less time than that. If parents have submitted a clearly-written statement (even if that is in the form of bullet points) with supporting documents, the panel will have got a good idea of their case before the appeal hearing. There can't, I think, be many situations in which an hour's explanation is really necessary on top of that.

I always try very hard to put parents at their ease and I won't conclude the session until the parents feel that they have said everything they need to, but that does sometimes come at the price of listening to a parent making the same point for the third time. So, in the end, I would say: take as long as you need but no longer.

A few minutes kensingtonia? Blimey, I bet they loved me then! I felt it was my only chance, I didn't want to miss anything out.

I did have a lot to say, both in response to the LEA reasons for not admitting my son and as to why we felt the school met his particular needs.

I hope my comments about the setting haven't alarmed anyone btw. I just think it didn't need to be do very formal so I'm glad to hear other panel members are a bit more thoughtful!

We did win btw! And my big file of research etc has now been borrowed by 3 sets of parents!

I'm feeling the need to say that my presentation didn't actually go on for over an hour, just in case anyone misunderstood me. I meant the entire hearing went on for over an hour. I only spoke for about ten minutes, but there were some complicated circumstances that I had to explain and the panel asked the school rep lots of questions too. I don't think my appeal was typical.

We got dd in despite the panel deciding that the LEA had followed the admissions code.

~How long was your appeal form - ours was 4000 words . Is that too much do you think? The form had seven sections.

ours was just over an A 4

~Did you have a letter supporting your case from your existing school? If so, did the appeal panel take notice or did they not allow it to be heard?

None from the school; they didn't think it fair and I can see their point; why should they support one child above another?
We did however have a file of letters from paediatrician, therapist, occupational therapist, GP etc

~How formal was the appeal itself? Was it job interview-like?

ours was in two parts: the first a general meeting for information and general questions (i.e. not about specific parts) with all parents appealing for that school, then a separate appointment for our own child; this was fairly formal, first the LEA presented their case (badly), then I presented ours, then the panel put some questions

~If you were going thorugh the process again, what would you do again/avoid?

I am happy with what we did, we were well prepared and had good paperwork

~If you won, what sort of grounds did you have (if they aren't too personal )

dd is disabled, had been assigned a school without wheelchair access because the school we applied for was not on the list of Schools with Disabled Access (apparently it does not have full provision for the visually impaired).

So the LEAs case was that dd couldn't be disabled really, since we hadn't applied for a "real" disabled access school. Our case was that disabled people are all different and have different needs and therefore have to be treated as individuals. We also had to show why dd could not travel long distances (backed up with medical evidence from paed) and why she needed to go to a school where at least one friend was going (backed up with evidence from psychologist)

~Any other tips??

I think it helped us enormously that the LEA were quite flustered; we came across as reasonable and approachable by contrast. And that dh had a lot of extra paperwork in his bag, so when they made claims about the school we had been assigned he could pull the plans out of his bag and show them.

JasperJohns well done! I must admit that I often wish parents had more to say. I do try and get their arguments out by questions if necessary and also ask the admissions authority questions that I would ask if in their position.