Appeals - some specific questions for those that have been thought it and a place to chat for those who are going through it now?

[Elaborate]

We are currently going through the appeals process for our DS.

I wonder if anyone who has been through it could answer a few questions?

~How long was your appeal form - ours was 4000 words . Is that too much do you think? The form had seven sections.
~Did you have a letter supporting your case from your existing school? If so, did the appeal panel take notice or did they not allow it to be heard?
~How formal was the appeal itself? Was it job interview-like?
~If you were going thorugh the process again, what would you do again/avoid?
~If you won, what sort of grounds did you have (if they aren't too personal )
~Any other tips??

For those that are currently in the process, how are you finding it? What do you think your chances are? Have you found any killer information?!

Lastly, but importantly, a big thanks to prh47bridge, Panel and Admission for guiding us all through this process

Interesting stuff! This is really helpful, so thanks to everyone who is contributing. The main point I take from this is to know your stuff, but not waffle!

For those who might know, is it possible to win a case on grounds of a school offering an AS level and extra GCSE in subject that the child is particularly good at (say working at high level 5/low level 6), when the other schools only offer one standard GCSE? Would it constitute sufficient prejudice to the child to not have the opportunity to take these exams?

What about if you have a case on say two or three grounds, but none are quite enough on their own - can you win on a cumulative basis of all three making up enough of an argument?

TIA

Elaborate - The short answers are it could do and possibly.

It's certainly worth including any argument about a child being very strong in a subject for which the school caters particularly well. In my view, this argument is more convincing if it's a subject that's part of the core curriculum - I would be less swayed by any argument that a child needed a place at a school that offered [silly example] GCSE knitting because there's no way of knowing whether the child will still be interested in knitting in five years time but they will still be studying maths or English. But, in any event, winning the appeal isn't just a matter of demonstrating prejudice to the child, it's about convincing the panel that that prejudice outweighs the prejudice to the school in admitting another pupil. So, even if there's demonstrable prejudice to the child in not being admitted, that could still be outweighed by other compelling reasons not to admit.

Because the prejudice to the child could be one big prejudice or a combination of several smaller prejudices, it is certainly possible to win an appeal with a number of arguments that on their own would not be enough to win. The panel is looking at the big picture, both of the prejudice to the child and of the prejudice to the school.

Remember too that each case turns on its own merits and its own facts, so an argument that does not fly in one appeal might fly in another.

There is no easy answer to those questions.

Assuming there are no issues with the admission process, the panel has to balance the prejudice to the child against the prejudice to the school. Sometimes the prejudice to the school is so minimal that almost any appeal will succeed. On the other hand, sometimes it is so high that even the most deserving appeal will fail. And it is all down to the judgement of the panel. Faced with the same facts two panels may come to different conclusions - which is one of the reasons the appeal code says that the same panel should be used for all appeals for a school.

You don't have to have a single item of prejudice strong enough to outweigh the school's case. It can be several items which build up to make a strong enough case. So I would include any reasonable argument you've got, but make sure you place the emphasis on your strongest arguments. There is no point spending 20 minutes talking about your weakest argument.

And while we are talking about long appeals, remember that the panel is human. They get bored just like anyone else. If you ramble on for ages and repeat yourself over and over again even the most conscientious panel may miss an important point in your case.

If you are looking at a year 7 admission I would not give a huge amount of weight to the GCSE curriculum.
I'm also a school governor and I know how much the curriculum can change.
Changes in school leadership, exam specifications, league tables, cohort , subject staffing - all can lead to changes in curriculum and your child is yaers away from GCSEs.

Thanks again PanelChair andprh47bridge, your insights are really helpful. It is good to hear that the Panel looks at the 'whole child' rather than doing a simple tick-box scoring type thing.

I will make sure when I go in I have a few bullet points of my main arguments, so I am not temped to ramble. What sort of questions do you typically ask parents? Are you gentle or quite probing/challenging? Or is impossible to say?!

SecretSquirrels - I take your point about the potential for things to change over time. However, we can only argue with the facts as we have them now, so if the school does these exams now, and dd will be choosing her options three years from now, then the GCSE curriculum does seem relevant. If we were to take the view that a lot can change in a few years, we would never be able to argue any case .

Thanks again for all contributions. I think I will ask my LA how many appeal forms for the school have been returned, so I have an idea of how many we are up against, if in fact, the school will allow any extra children in anyway...

Elaborate -

On questioning style: You are (if I may say so) setting up a false dichotomy there. I am always gentle in my questioning, in that I am polite, non-aggressive and respectful. However, I am also probing and if parents make grand claims that don't seem to be supported by any evidence (or are simply illogical or implausible) then I will ask, in my polite, non-aggressisve and respectful way, for them to substantiate what they say. Of course, the same goes for the LEA representatives.

On types of question: This depends so much on the individual appeal. Many of the parents I see at appeals have English as an additional language, have not had much formal education themselves and find the process quite intimidating. If they are not presenting their case very well - or if I suspect that there is actually more to their arguments than they have conveyed - I ask questions that draw out those arguments a little more. If, for example, they say "my child is good at music and this school has a music specialism" I will ask what instrument the child plays and what exams they have passed. I sometimes do this for the LEA too, although as they are more familiar with the process this isn't necessary so often. In every instance, I am trying to ensure that the arguments are said rather than half-said.

On the number of forms: It isn't up to the school how many extra children they "allow" in. That is the panel's decision and if the panel orders the school to admit then the school has no further say in the matter (unless they take the case to judicial review, which very rarely happens). If the panel is faced with the propect of ordering more admissions than it considers the school can handle, then it is for the panel - not the school - to decide how many children should be admitted and rank the cases accordingly.

Oh, and I think SecretSquirrel's point was very similar to mine.

You need to be careful not to overplay the argument about the curriculum, because your child could change so much between now and GCSE options time or because the curriculum or the options available in the school could change. Claiming to know that your child will want to do GSCE [knitting] while they are still only 10 or 11 may strain the panel's credulity. By all means say that your child is interested in [knitting], that you come from a long line of [knitters] and it is likely that your child will want to follow in the line, and only this school offers GSCE [knitting], but don't make this the only plank of your argument.

With regard to the 'knitting' argument, would the same be true for the basis of our appeal? The school for which we are appealing has a very strong languages program from yr 7, teaching both french and spanish which my DD is already very strong in, whereas the other schools in our town do not (our allocated school alternates yr7 languages which means 2012 intake will learn german, and do not offer spanish as a GCSE at all). We consider it crucial for her to be able to continue in these languages, as does her current spanish teacher who has already offered to write a letter attesting to her ability.
As a secondary point, probably more akin to the knitting argument, DD is a gifted dancer and school we are appealing for does offer GCSE dance, as well as a dedicated dance studio and many opportunities for after school dance classes, again poorly lacking in allocated school. In fact this years yr7 dance club has been changed to a gym club because there was not enough interest for the dance.
Have to say the knitting argument has made me doubt our basis for our appeal and wonder what we can do to strengthen our argument

Drivinmecrazy - Please don't get me wrong. As I have said many times on this and other threads, parents should mention all the reasons they believe their child will suffer prejudice (in the sense of disadvantage) if they are not admitted to the school. Some of those arguments will probably be stronger than others, but as you're trying to give the complete picture it still makes sense to mention them.

The point that I (and, I think, SecretSquirrel) was trying to make is that, if parents make exaggerated claims, then the panel is going to spot that. Saying "my child is determined to take GCSE knitting" (and I keep mentioning knitting only because I don't want to get bogged down in discussions of particular subjects) is not very plausible when the child is 10 and may well develop other interests once they get to secondary school and so many new subjects become available. Saying, on the other hand, "my child has an aptitude for craft and the range of craft subjects available at the preferred school is far more extensive" is (at least to my view) more sustainable. It's about how the argument is presented.

In your case, I certainly think it's worth mentioning the MFL and the dance. Of course, it's possible that the panel will take the view that your daughter's aptitude for languages means that she would easily master German, but I think you have a respectable argument to make about not losing the proficiency she already has in French and Spanish. Similarly, you have a good argument there about continuing her interest in (and aptitude for) dance.

As I keep saying, arguments about curriculum provision and after-school activities are the basis of very many appeals - and they get to the heart of what prejudice the child will suffer if not admitted - but you need to be very clear about the nature of the prejudice.

Thank you Panel. Whilst I understand the process has to be the way it is, I do wonder how many people are put off appealing by the whole process. I know of two parents, who while not happy with their allocated schools (with good reason), have been completely daunted by the process and have chosen not to put in a fight for their children. It seems unfairly weighted towards parents who have the ability to put forward a good argument and can articulate themselves both on paper and in person. In my experience so far, one of my friendships is already strained because we feel as if we are competing for places (appealing for same school but different reasons) and as a result are playing our cards so close to our chest that general conversation is very difficult, with our appeals very much the elephant in the room.
Looking forward to normality being resumed in a few months and actually envy some friends who have accepted their allocated schools with good grace and are now finding peace with their decisions.

Actually I don't agree that parents who are not articulate or have little education are disadvantaged. As I said before the panel will try very hard to draw out information which may support an appeal. I have allowed many, many appeals where the parents were tongue tied, tearful or spoke little English. (Not because of those things obviously).
The only time I can remember being hugely influenced by a curriculum choice was an in year 9 application to move. The child was at a small comp which had a limited range of subjects on offer. He wanted to be a "knitter" and had applied to move to a school with huge facilities in his subject.

I'm not saying that parents who are not articulate or have had little formal education are at a disadvantage - I'm saying that they may feel more intimidated than other parents might and may find it harder on the day to get their points across. But panels are well aware of that and every panel I have been on has worked hard to put all parents at their ease, to help them overcome any nervousness and to do the best they can for their child. It's about levelling up the playing field - not by being biased or by favouring parents over the LEA or some parents over others, but by making sure that, if parents lose the appeal, it's because of the substance of their argument, not because of the nervous way in which they have presented it.

The process is designed to be as informal (although still serious) and accessible as possible. It is often parents, though, who actively make it more formal by (for example) bringing a solicitor with them.

SchoolsNightmare - The appeal shouldn't be adversarial. The panel is trying to reach a fair assessment of the balance of prejudice between your child and the school. You and the LEA should not be slugging it out - you are presenting your cases to the panel, for the panel to reach a view.

All panel members know that parents are apprehensive and will try very hard to help you put your case as well as you can. We are not Gorgons.

I don't think anyone is for one minute questioning the role of the individuals sitting on the panel, but the whole process from beginning to end can seem very adversarial. Please don't think this is in anyway an attack on the individual panel members because it is not meant that way. Many of us have never had any experience up against any form of bureaucracy, and when you are fighting for what you know is in the best interests of your child it is often very difficult to stay focused and not give into the emotional over what after all is often a very emotive matter.

SchoolsNightmare just wanted to offer my sympathy at the very distressing situation you're in. I really struggled not to dissolve into tears as well and fund I just couldn't cope with people asking how I was etc. I was so desperate to put things right for DD2 and really felt I was up against the system. She had had an awful time in yrs 5 & 6 and had been so looking forward to secondary school, and I felt we'd really let her down. It was the first time she realised I wasn't invincible and the uncertainty was terrible.

Having said that, the opportunity of an appeal is significant. At least you do have the chance to put your case to people who are impartial. Despite the intimidating process (and I do think it's a process that favours the well-educated) we were grateful for the hearing.

Looking back, that 4 month period of our lives was something of a write-off. I am self-employed and really put my business on hold to deal with the appeal. It was not that it took me 4 months to put it together so much that it totally occupied my mind for the whole time!

After we'd won our appeal we were invited to an introductory session for new starters - the school had to put an extra one on as they'd already held the first one before the appeals were held - at which the deputy head said he didn't know what they would do with all the children who'd got in on appeal, as they didn't have classroom space or lockers for any over the 180 they were supposed to take. My older DD said this was rubbish and indeed it did turn out to be untrue, but it was upsetting at the time to picture your child sitting on the corner of a desk or in a corridor because you'd dared to appeal!

SchoolsNightmare Fri 30-Mar-12 14:38:21
"I know Panel - but it feels that way. The LA present their case which might say things like "if we take your child everyone else at school will suffer lack of resources, the teachers will be overworked and there might be terrible accidents in the corridors" - or things along those lines which feels horrible to the parents appealing."

I can relate to this. It took me a couple of years to stop cringing when I met dd's deputy headteacher in the corridor at parents evenings; he was the one who had to put the school's case and did so very eloquently, detailing how disadvantaged the school would be if they had to take my dd on. Then I realised that he did a job, and when it was done forgot about it, he doesn't even recognise me I don't think, and certainly doesn't associate dd with those people whose appeal he attended once. It was hard work at the time, now it is water under the bridge.

I agree that, however approachable and smiley panel members try to be, the process is always going to be stressful and nerve-wracking for parents, because so much is riding on the outcome of the appeal. Cory is right - the representative of the school/LEA is doing a job on behalf of the school and it isn't as personal as it might sound and feel at the time. I know it is easier said than done, but that is why I'm trying to say: don't be intimidated. The panel really do want you to state your case and to do so to the best of your (and their) ability.

I have to say, speaking to people on here who are panel members has allayed my fears about the appeal meeting to some extent. I had thought that the appeals panel would be scary gatekeepers, but it seems not . I am sure I will be very nervous come the day mind, but as prh47bridge says, panel members are are human and do want to be fair.

One last question for now (!) - I realise that it is important that we do not slate other schools in our quest for a place at our desired school, but it is hard surely to make the distinctions between them clear without seeming to criticise. ie school A does x,y and z, and school B only does z, and my child is G&T in x and y... (iyswim?). I assume it is not sufficient to just say school A does x,y and z and not mention school B's provision in comparison to avoid being seen as critical?

Final point - while the appeal meeting itself may be well-handled by panel members in terms of drawing out those who aren't so good at setting out their stalls etc, I think the process as a whole would tend to put many people off. I know I feel already that it is wearing me down and I am pretty resilient. Not sure what the answer to that is though .

Lol SchoolsNightmare. I guess I am not fazed by the meeting per se, but it is the enormity of the decision going the wrong way that is scary. So far, we have managed to protect and guide our children and do what is best for them. Right now, we can't, and it is in the hands of other people...

What is even more frustrating for us (and you!) is that we are in this position through no fault of our own - you are in a blackspot and we are in a a lottery area. We are having to go through this stress when DS's friends are quite merrily making plans, yet we did nothing wrong, we were just unlucky .