Tutoring in seondary schools

[pchick]

How much tutoring goes on in Secondary schools. Is it to top-up for GCSEs or does it extend all the way down to year 7? how common is it?

I can't say I'm a fan of "tricks" to pass the exams. The course I teach on at university is a course training people in an area where lives depend on them making the right judgement. I'd rather people training in those types of jobs don't have a superficial knowledge using "tricks" to pass the exams.

Of course, if you are doing a subject where your career will not actually rely on a great deal of knowledge of your actual subject area (philosopy, ancient greek etc spring to mind) that is perhaps something else.....

Cortina - At the risk of sounding like a Mutual Appreciation Society :) I totally agree with you too.

"You appear to be one of those people who need to blame others for their problems."

"I never felt that having 'superficial' knowledge of rock formations and what Jesus said and did has damaged me as a person in any way"

"But Cumber seems to be suggesting that people who can't afford a tutor are screwed."

"if you hire a tutor that doesn't add value AND you still keep him on then its YOUR fault if you don't get the results."

So a wasted £36 per hour x say 20 hours = £720 if DC FAILS to go from an A to A*?

Or is it on a 'no A* no fee' basis? One only know the FINAL result AFTER THE PERIOD OF TUITION.

I have been very clear in what I am saying: I am talking about Maths and English. Twisting the facts and not providing direct answers to direct questions is just a sign of losing the argument.

"I'm just saying, people who tutor should be paid a decent wage, why not?"

andisa, there is a big difference between a 'decent' wage and an exorbitant charge for a superficial service. I had asked some direct questions but unfortunately you didn't answer them:

So would you pay £25 an hour for tuition so that your child would get an A* rather than an A or B without tuition?

Would you pay £25 an hour for a 'professional' maths tutor to teach your child tricks to get an A without understanding the questions?

"I can't say I'm a fan of "tricks" to pass the exams."

"Of course, if you are doing a subject where your career will not actually rely on a great deal of knowledge of your actual subject area (philosopy, ancient greek etc spring to mind) that is perhaps something else....."

I am arguing against the teaching of tricks to pass Maths (or English) exams (and charging £25 per hour for it). I trust that you would agree that a good understanding of Maths and English (upto Standard Grade / GCSE level) would be of lifetime value.

"You are obviously a very intelligent lady, it?s a shame you have to use insults and aggression to get your point across."

Actually, sarcasm is my usual weapon of choice.

I'm on overnight support at the mo. Waiting for IT Ops to call back so I got time to play with you Cumbernauld.

"So would you pay £25 an hour for tuition so that your child would get an A* rather than an A or B without tuition?"

I pay that for a music lesson so I can't get too outraged about being charged £25 by a tutor but yes, I would pay it if it got my DCs an A*. Do I think about how I might be driving up the price for a parent on a low income? Well, do you stop to think that you might be driving up the price of property by buying where you live? Of course not so aren't you being a bit hypocrital about this tutoring issue?

"Would you pay £25 an hour for a 'professional' maths tutor to teach your child tricks to get an A without understanding the questions?"

There are tricks to pass a maths exam??? :) I always thought that you either knew how to do maths or you didn't.

Cumbernauld, my comment was not actually a critisism of you. Someone else, earlier up thread had said they liked "tricks" as that is what had got them through their studies (paraphrasing), and this did not make them a "worse person" for it. Personally, I'd argue that it may not make someone a "worse person", but it will make them a worse scientist, medic, historian, sociologist or whichever is their chosen field of study.

If you read my previous comments, you would see that I said I was not against tuition if it helps improve someone's understanding of the area - I am against people expecting to use it in order to learn tricks to pass the exam.

I also think £25/hour is actually really a rather good rate for tuition tbh. This includes preparation time (not insignificant), materials e.g. print-outs, worksheets etc. If the hour starts from when tuition begins, rather than when travelling time begins, I rather expect that the real work involved in an hour of contact time takes £25/hour to more like £6.25/hour (based on 1 hour tuition, half an hour in each direction travelling to/from the tutees house and 2 hours prep time, in which case, the £25 actually covers potentially 4 hours of actual work).

I had a maths tutor purely for GSCE many many moons ago. I needed help to scrape a C. I hated maths. I got a C.

In also got A's in all my other arts based subjects. However, I needed a C to get into the Humanities Course I wanted at University.

In this case, I think it was perfectly right that the tutor, in the 1 hour a week he had me, concentrated on tutoring me to pass the exam. I simply wasn't interested in maths.

My maths is perfectly proficient to get me through life.

OldMother - £25 is a bargain. That is how much I pay for a music lesson for DD and that is with us going to the teacher's house.

I agree Pushed

What is wrong with tutoring?

I couldn't afford to send the dcs to a private school unless we moved into a manhole. So, instead I look at my finances and apportion a certain amount for tutoring (hypothetically). What exactly is the difference between paying £25 a week for a bit of extra maths and paying £25,000 a year for a certain school? Why is the latter considered a fair choice but the former judged as "sneaky" and "cheating"?

And, furthermore, I have helped ds from time to time in various subjects. We have, for example, been spending at least an hour a week doing extra French. I don't pay myself £25 for this (!) but I suppose it is nonetheless "shadow education".

I charge £35 per hour or more for home visit tuition, but this works out at much less per hour in reality - unsually under £10 per hour by the time I have paid public transport costs, spent on text books/printing costs, and spent time travelling and preparing. I find I have more than enough demand for my 'superficial' services at this price to maintain tutoring as a full time occupation.
Many of those I tutor (largely A level students) go to private schools, there seems little correlation between the amount you pay for a school and the quality of the teaching.
Lots of affluent parents pay for their unmotivated children to to be forced to work/revise -I usually have a number I see for many hours a week in the run up to the exams for this purpose. They are invariably boys! This probably helps them to perhaps get a grade higher than they would otherwise, but without self motivation its hard for tuition to make much difference.

my ds2 is very able always in the top 3 or 4 students in his year for all subjects (except anything arty) etc.
But he is just hitting his teens & is a lazy sod, whilst i will try to instill in him that he will only get out what he puts in & that he needs to work to achieve etc etc etc.
I still think i would consider using a tutor during GCSE year if still bone idle & too busy playing football needed.
Once he is over the teenage yrs i'm hoping the self motivation he used to have will return.
£25 an hour sounds like an OK amount to me, not money i've got going spare but would manage to find it for a few months if needed.

sorry about the bold, that was meant to be crossed through, i think i need a MN tutor!

"Cumbernauld, my comment was not actually a critisism of you"

OldMotherDismass, my comment was also not a critisism of any of yours'. I was just seeking your opinion regarding 'tricks' for Maths and English.

We agree on the "tricks", we disagree on the rate for "tricks".

For an apt tutor, tuition for Maths requires hardly any preparartion. You know your subject inside out and already have copies of the material required. The main skill needed is the ability to make the student easily get a firm grasp of the subject. Travelling costs can be charged at actual rate and would be quite low or none if it is walking distance to the student's home.

"OldMother - £25 is a bargain. That is how much I pay for a music lesson for DD and that is with us going to the teacher's house."

"We pay £18 for 30mun for our music teacher"

Thats works out at £36 per hour + costs of travelling to the teacher, in the hope of improving from A to A* in MUSIC.

That is not £25 per hour (twisting the facts), even if you actually pay £25 for 42 minutes.

Like twisting the facts by contradicting superficial tuition in Maths and English with superficial knowledge of "rock formations and what Jesus said and did".

"I kept an eye on DCs' progress in their music instruments and I sacked the teachers who weren't doing a good job."

So you didn't pay the sacked tutors?

The very fact that you had to sack tutors proves that they were charging an exorbitant rate (£36 per hour?) for being useless.

You still haven't provided a straight answer to a straight question:

So a wasted £36 per hour x say 20 hours = £720 if DC FAILS to go from an A to A*?

"£25 an hour sounds like an OK amount to me, not money i've got going spare but would manage to find it for a few months if needed."

For tricks to pass in Maths or English, or for a good understanding of the subject(s)?

What about the many who can't manage to find it for a few months if needed?

Cumbernauld, I can maybe answer your question on whether £720 would be money wasted if dc fails to go from A to A*, from my perspective.

The simple answer is that, no I don't think it is money wasted. You are not paying for the right to get a certain grade, you are paying someone to provide additional help in understanding a subject. In the same way, with the increased tuition fees at university, you are not buying your right to a degree.

Quality of tuition cannot be measured in terms of grades attained by students (at least, not that simplistically) and improved understanding can be worth it, even if the student still only attains the same grade as their improved understanding can help further along the lines. Quality of education must be viewed as a long-term investment, not simply working towards the next test. This idea of simply working towards the next test just reinforces the compartmentalised thinking seen in many students these days.

I had a Maths Tutor for DS for Year 13, mainly because he arsed around in year 12. The tutor charged £28 an hour and was brilliant. She told me DS did not need a tutor,as he was very bright, but what she did was really motivate him to work and really enjoy the subject He got his A in Maths which he needed for uni entrance at the time. He went on and got his 2:1 in Maths

Whilst I obviously have no objection to tutoring, it can't make silk purses out of sows ears.

Cumbernauld...Not for tricks but hopefully as a way to help him focus & knuckle down.

Not everyone can afford, true i'm afraid but thats life! We all do the best for our wn children & i dont think we usually prevent our children from accessing things because not all children have it do we??

Not all families can afford computers but here we are on an internet forum, we all do the best we can with the ££ we have. We all have different priorities.