Super-selective or all-round?

[mydogisinsane]

I've got a bit of a dilemma and need some sage advice from you clever parents.

DS is at a non-academically selective prep and is doing very well. In the top sets for everything, in the top 5 pupils in his year academically. Fairly sporty too and very happy. He has friends of all abilities. His prep has suggested to us that DS would have a decent chance of getting an academic scholarship for senior school.

Where I live there are no very academically selective senior schools, the nearest are an hours drive or train journey away - a door-to-door commute to one of these would be 3 hours a day!

There is a lovely, traditional type school within a short drive of my home, but it is not very academically selective, so its results are consequently lower. We have visited all the schools in question, and really like the non-selective one, it seems to offer so much more than just academia, it felt like DS would have fun there, loads of extra-curricular activities, nice atmosphere, not at all "stuck-up", great sport, drama, pastoral care etc. etc.

DS would have a great shot at a scholarship and even being put forward for one by his current school would put him in the scholar's programme.

I was quite happy with my decision, (he is doing well in a non-selective environment at the moment) but, children talk, and some of the other parents have found out about our plans and are openly critical of our choice. I have had comments like "why do you want to throw away his guarantee of 10 A's", and "it's a rubbish school, they take anyone". (there are some very odd parents where he is, who feel they can comment on every aspect of other people's lives). These parents are quite happy to make their DC's do this awful commute, if it means them going to the super-selective school.

I should stick with the decision I am happy with shouldn't I? I know that and I am not at all weak-willed but I am still feeling a little twitch of doubt and would welcome any comments from people who might have been in a similar position.

Of course you're right to be about how selective many selective schools are particularly in this time of an economic down turn. In many cases bums on seats/ ability to pay is the selection criteria and I know of a least two children who didn't make the "grade" but still got accepted into well known selective boarding schools. But I suspect that the often enormously over subscribed super selectives do not need to do this.

@happy of course they do. The ability to pay is the key criteria. Everything else is subordinate to that.

Many if the super selective e.g. St Paul's and Winchester also offer generous bursaries to those who meet their admission criteria so the ability to pay is not the key criteria.

An extract from the St Paul's website:
"St Paul?s takes pride in giving the best possible education to talented boys, irrespective of their family?s financial circumstances. Each year there are funds available for free and subsidised places. The school benefits from the diversity which our pupils bring."
And the Win Coll website:
"We offer generous bursaries to help boys who would like to study with us."

And the Eton website:
"Eton has substantial financial provision designed to widen access by enabling boys to come to the school at the normal entry age of 13, who could not otherwise do so,"
"No parents with a talented boy should feel that Eton is necessarily beyond their means."

Also worth being a bit about levels of selectivity at some independents. It's a vital part of the marketing: more emphasis on the 'your child is very special but at the same time privileged to be here

Agree wholeheartedly with this ecxept that 'some' should be replaced with 'most'

Many if the super selective e.g. St Paul's and Winchester also offer generous bursaries to those who meet their admission criteria so the ability to pay is not the key criteria

This applies to a small minority doesn't it and rarely -if ever - covers all fees? And in any case, the notion, nice as it is, completely ignores the fact that the parents need the cultural capital and the social and intellectual confidence to be thinking forward from when a child is pretty young to approach a well-known school, register, sit the pre-test and so on. Many middle class families, let alone working class would take a while to get their heads around all that, including dealing with the social aspect of sending a child to a famous school while their friends stay locally.

Aren't MGS and RGSG the most genuinely philanthropic?

I suppose I'm surprised at the frequency with which parents of independent school children feel the need to state just how selective their child's school is, when in reality (with very few exceptions indeed), they really aren't.

"This applies to a small minority doesn't it and rarely -if ever - covers all fees?"
We know of people on 100% bursaries at St Pauls.
"And in any case, the notion, nice as it is, completely ignores the fact that the parents need the cultural capital and the social and intellectual confidence to be thinking forward from when a child is pretty young to approach a well-known school, register, sit the pre-test and so on. Many middle class families, let alone working class would take a while to get their heads around all that, including dealing with the social aspect of sending a child to a famous school while their friends stay locally."
The schools websites are freely available to all who want to read them all carefully details their admission process and I believe are happy even to consider an alternative to CE.
With regard to the social aspect of sending a child to these schools this problem lies with the individual parents stirred up by prejudice of the sort read in the media and on places like MN. This has nothing to do with the schools themselves they are genuinely committed to widening their access. I struggle to see what else they could do far short of taking a full page ad in a tabloid newspaper.
Finally Eton closes its registration at 10yr and 6 months a time when most in state primary would have already started looking at St Paul's primary school children can go to Colet court for yr 7 and then onto St Pauls read their websites and you can register for Win Coll in yr 5 again a time when state primary school parents will already be thinking about the next school.

happy you're in another world. It would be interesting to know the social profile of those on the generous bursaries at Eton and Winchester, and their family history for the last two to three generations.

RGSG has an impressive outreach programme though. And being a day school, it doesn't have the same social barriers to access that the big name boarding schools do.

I agree with your decision my dog.

Have just been in a very similar situation to you except total commute time slightly less. I hope DS with do well anywhere as long as he is happy.

Headmaster tried to push us to the more prestigious school but I think this was purely for his own leavers destination charts. Went so far as to say that all the boys that don't do well at his school, he would push to send to our choice school ( which I have to say unnerved us slightly)!

Stick to your guns. Yes a long commute could be fun but it could also be a three hour daily nightmare which is a huge part of child's day. Then two hours homework?? It wouldn't be for me.

I guess at the end of the day there are no guarantees whichever school you choose.

What does your DS think?

HappyG - I am not dismissing these schools' approach or best intentions- my children are at one and I know that what you say is true and they would like to attract more bright children from all backgrounds.

Nothing that you have typed above though, rebuts the things I mentioned above about the kinds of people likely to apply or think of applying. It just isn't on most families' radar. To think that a majority of the population is put off by Mn is a bit unlikely - the causes are far older and deeper. Thus the schools are not choosing from a true cross-section of the population, but a self-selecting group. Actually, given their access to funds, a full page ad in certain newspapers from one or two schools mightn't be a bad idea in terms of widening access!

You're right that the schools are self-selecting not only on income but also on awareness, which effectively excludes all but the most academically motivated parents - hence, at my son's school, the preponderance of boys from Asian backgrounds travelling in from miles away (I don't know who is on a bursary, as of course the school wouldn't say, but I would imagine several of these boys are).

A group of 22 London schools have clubbed together to promote the fact that bursaries are available and I've seen them advertising on the tube - so clearly trying to reach ordinary commuting Londoners; St Paul's, St Paul's Girls, City of London, CLGS, Westminster, LEH, UCS, KCS are all on the list.

My son's school also does enrichment programmes for able mathematicians in local primary schools in Y5 and Y6, so the primary schools put children forward. The school lets parents know of the bursaries available at that point if they want to consider trying the school.

But of course that's still only scratching the surface.

"at my son's school, the preponderance of boys from Asian backgrounds travelling in from miles away (I don't know who is on a bursary, as of course the school wouldn't say, but I would imagine several of these boys are )"

It couldn't be possible that these Asian boys have parents who are professionals or businessman so they must be on a bursary eh? :o :o

Why would you imagine that singersgirl?

Nothing like a sweeping and offensive generalisation is there?

OP send your DS to the school he thinks he will be happier at. I'm sure he'll do well.

Sorry, it certainly wasn't meant to be offensive and I'm sorry if I phrased it clumsily - I said clearly that I don't think all the boys of Asian descent are on bursaries and of course many of them have professional parents. It was more an observation on the academic ambition of many Asian families -so, of the families looking for bursaries, a large number are from ethnic minorities, because the parents in those particular families are very committed to hard work and academic excellence. Thus they seek out schools they believe to be good, aim high and encourage hard work and resilience in their children. See Tiger Mom articles ad nauseam.

It was also an assumption based on knowing the addresses of some of these particular children and believing that someone who lives in South Norwood or Colindale is more likely to be on a bursary than someone who lives in Holland Park or Chelsea.

It is a generalisation, I admit, but as with many generalisations is based on observation - like the well-observed pattern of small grocery stores being established by first-generation immigrants, whose children then excel at school and become doctors, dentists and bankers.

Of course many less well-off 'white British' families encourage this too, and of course not all Asian families have Tiger Moms.

Anyway, this is well off topic for the OP. I think she should send her son to the nearer school.

singergirl - you did a excellent job of extracting yourself from that one. :) Have a

"It was more an observation on the academic ambition of many Asian families -so, of the families looking for bursaries, a large number are from ethnic minorities, because the parents in those particular families are very committed to hard work and academic excellence. Thus they seek out schools they believe to be good, aim high and encourage hard work and resilience in their children."
So what we're saying is that it is not beyond the wit of Asian families to work out how to register their child at the appropriate stage in their education, apply for a bursary and deal with "the social aspects of sending a child to a famous school" but your average white family whether they be working class or middle class don?t have "the cultural capital and the social and intellectual confidence to be thinking forward from when a child is pretty young to approach a well-known school, register, sit the pre-test and so on." It?s hardly surprising that both the Chinese and Indian economies are on the up whilst ours sits firmly in the doldrums!
Best of luck to the Indians and Chinese and those who have got the where with all to work out how to do it or at least give it a go. As for those who don?t possess the where with all it?s your own faults just don?t moan incessantly about how unfair the system is.

(Wipes sweat from brow). Thanks for the flowers!

Only on MN would someone publicly ask "the school is only on the top 250 nationally, is that good enough?"

ragged - there are plenty of good state schools were I live. Some are quite highly ranked in various league tables. I just find it amusing that there are people out there who will pay £15k pa for a school that isnt particularly good just so DC can have classmates called Tabitha and Bennedict :o

I think a 90 minute commute each way every day for 7 years would be too much
given that you are very happy with what the nearer school can offer in terms of interesting activities.

I'd do a lot to get my children into the best school for them (though they're not in the private sector) including considering a commute. But over an hour is a serious consideration, especially when it would mean he couldn't join in with any after school activities.

Good decision ! Keep the faith !

ragged -

I'd go for the nearer school - but wonders if there is a Plan C ie a good local state school where - shock horror! - the children might not have loaded parents but might actually be rather bright and get excellent results/

Or does the OP not even consider a school where their dc might have to mix with (shhh, say it quietly) children from non-loaded backgrounds?

i mean, just because you can pay doesn't mean you should feel obliged to if the product you're getting isn't any better - you could save the money and spend it on posh hobbies if they have to mix with the Tabithas and Tarquins etc (apologies to any children of those names btw).

Why is it that loaded people tend to have more syllables in DC's names compared to not loaded parents? Henrietta, Thomasina, Issabella as opposed to Dave, Steve, Jill. Just a thought.