Secondary appeal

[SWStressed]

Child not offered school on CAF but former girls school turning mixed in sept with no track record with boys. Bright and very sporty child. Know you are not meant to critisise the school you were allocated but in this instance think could raise very valid criticisms, any advice from you panel members?

Don't.

Your case needs to be about why the appeal school is the right one for your child, not why the allocated school is the wrong one. No matter how awful it is it doesn't give the panel a reason to admit to your preferred school.

And the fact it has no track record with boys doesn't help at all. If they are becoming mixed some boys have to be the first ones admitted and some girls have to be the first to find themselves mixing with boys. If the fact it hasn't worked with boys before was grounds for a successful appeal it would allow everyone admitted in September to appeal.

Agree with PRH, you need to concentrate on the school that you want and not the school that you do not want. Look for all the good things in the schools you want and how it will help you child.

As PRH says, a successful appeal would need to prove why your dd has different needs from all the other boys who are expected to start this school under these circumstances. "Only the best is good enough for my son" won't cut it with the panel; they have to consider the best outcome for all the children.

Besides, I really don't see why this should be a problem. My dd and her male friends were in precisely this position and there has never been any difficulty whatsoever, for either sex; the school coped fine. They had thought through the situation and made relevant changes- no reason why your school shouldn't have.

As for the sportiness being a problem- isn't that making rather sexist assumptions about girls' schools? Is there any evidence to suggest they don't understand sport? My experiences is that girls's schools tend to be very into sports: dd's school (which my ds now also attends) had excellent facilities and a good record of sports' clubs etc.

Well this school was previously failing and put into special measures and is being rebranded as a mixed school hence the concern. I am really looking for advice on appeal not to be persuaded the school may be a good choice.

Those who can help with the appeal aspect, can I ask, it seems really difficult to say why any particular school is the one that really suits your child. Does an appeal on this ground actually ever work? Of course lots of schools will have particular aspects which would be a good fit and the reality is the appeal will be made to all six schools on the CAF which identify different aspects which particualry suit the child.

I understand your concern but it won't convince an appeal panel, I'm afraid.

Yes, appeals on the grounds that the preferred school is the one that suits your child work all the time. That is how most secondary school appeals are won.

I agree with PRH. The success rate for secondary school admission appeals nationally is something around 30%, but that does vary dramatically across the country.
I can't remember a case where we admitted on the basis of how c**p the other school was. Yes it is almost always implied by virtue of the fact you are appealing but not in such a direct way.

Just wondering if any panel members could advice: Is it sensible to show Ofsted report of allocated school with 2 sentences brief decription of school and league table results to just show how little does school offer for my child hence appealing with full evidence and abilities to preffered school.All ideas appreciated.

Thanks

For the umpteenth time .... No, it is not sensible to show Ofsted reports, league tables or anything else that suggests that the allocated school is not as good academically as the school you're appealing for. As has already been said on this thread, disparaging the school you?ve been allocated will get you nowhere.

Appeals on the grounds of "my child is too clever for that school" or "that school is not good enough for my child" never succeed. The appeal has to demonstrate why your child needs to be at the preferred school. It might be possible to do that where a child is (say) gifted in music and one school has a music programme and the other doesn't, but a general preference for a higher-achieving school will never be enough. It goes without saying that most people would prefer a popular, high-achieving school for their child, but those schools' capacity is finite and no LEA (on first application) or appeal panel is going to say, in effect, that nobody need go to the less popular school and can have a place at the more popular one instead.

I understand your point panel chair but i think panel should consider the facts if child whose level are reaching 6 as predicted in sats,is g&t in maths than perhaps child should be considered to better school which is high in league table. Of course every parent wants the best but if your kid is bottom of class in primary school and barely can read surely it will NOT become GENIUS in the best possible school either.I myself would not bother to bring such a waste of space kid.

Many schools in London claim to have some kind of specialists status but look at Westminster City School? Yes,lovely building,claims science,extra - curricular activities,pastoral care...REALLY?

Ofsted dosnt agree,GCSE and A levels results what matters and they are BAD!!!
Who wrote prospectus and website,not much to show for such a big development where meals are paid for by LEA, meaning parents dont work...

If you wander into an appeal using language like "waste of space kid" you'll be out the door in record time. You never know, one of the panel might have a child at the school you don't want, and you will effectively be labelling their child a waste of space.

The panel will and must take the view that each school will give each child a good education. OFSTED, exam results are irrelevant; otherwise every single child who didn't get a place would be able to successfully appeal!

It is the other elements that one school offers that make it suit your child specifically, over and above other schools. So if your child has a specific talent for a sport that the other school doesn't play, or if it's on four floors and your child has a condition where they can't climb stairs. Telling the panel that your child is "too good" for a particular school is just going to get their backs up.

isky, to follow through on what you are saying, if your child is G & T in maths and you have some proof of that, then you can say that and say that preferred school has a strong maths department and will allow your child to do two maths GCSE courses and three different "A" level maths courses or whatever it is, which your allocated school does not do. That is the way to make it positive for the school you want without rubbishing the school that you have been allocated.
As far as panels are concerned you will not local to me be allowed to present Ofsted information etc. The clerk will stop you because the panel is not allowed to consider any information that is around the capabilities or otherwise of the school.

"I understand your point panel chair but i think panel should consider the facts if child whose level are reaching 6 as predicted in sats,is g&t in maths than perhaps child should be considered to better school which is high in league table. Of course every parent wants the best but if your kid is bottom of class in primary school and barely can read surely it will NOT become GENIUS in the best possible school either.I myself would not bother to bring such a waste of space kid."

I woiuld suggest that, in fact, the child who is doing so well would do well anywhere (I have personal experience of this, where my siblings and I went to schools which could not have been more different - [just] ex secondary modern all the way up to top private school on a scholarship. All got similar results, all went to Oxbridge), and needs the place in a 'highly regarded' school much LESS than a child who needs really good teaching....

Except in fact schools which are 'highly regarded' in fact don't always have good teaching, they are just in areas or have selection procedures that mean that they take in birhgt kids with no barriers to learning and churn them back out the other end. The really good schools with fantastic teaching are often those which DO take children who need extra help and enable them to make more progress than expected... but that doesn't necessarily make you 'highly regarded' ...

isky, I agree with all the advice others have given you.

If you attack the offered school you are only giving the panel reasons why you don't want your child there. That doesn't help. Even if they agree that this is the wrong school for your child it doesn't mean that the appeal school is the right one. That is what you need to prove. Attacking the offered school will therefore not help you win your appeal. If you manage to put the panels backs up by taking the approach that "this school isn't good enough for my child" you may actually damage your chances of winning. The panel shouldn't reject your appeal just because you take that approach but they may be less inclined to give you the benefit of any doubt.

You may think that, because your child is bright, they should go to a school with a high league table position but that is not how the system works. However much you want the appeal panel to consider this argument the simple fact is that the rules do not allow them to do so. You can make any argument you want at appeal but the panel has to follow the rules when deciding the outcome.

Never, ever attack the offered school. Take the approach Admission has indicated to show how the appeal school is right for your child. That is the way to win your appeal.

So advice panel members, is it better to focus on one area or have as many grounds as you can? Funnily enough it would be the maths provision we would be gunning for but also sports provision. There are lots of other things could mention, music, distance, peers. Is it useful or annoying when people include lots of maybe weaker areas of support for the preferred school? Thanks for help

Thank you for taking your time to reply.

I will be following all your experience and advice and not disccusing allocated school.I hope that I have sufficient evidence (ie Y4& Y5 reports,support letters from professionals,samples of work if they wish to look at..) to provide that my child is most suitable for the school hence win appeal.

Thanks again

Also can I ask, should the (refused) school be mentioned at all in the appeal doc? Just to say allocated this and refused with brief reasons why? Or should it be completely silent on the point? thanks

SWStressed,
Appeal form I have submitted asked which school was child allocated?
I did provide details but thought that was actually strange if you could not disccuss a school during your appeal.

I am sure professionals will come on board and clarify the matter.

Remember, you are appealing FOR a school, not AGAINST one. If you focus your discussion on Why school X is no good for your child, the panel could easily say that OK, maybe it isn't, but that is no reason to admit her to school Y; there are other schools in the area with spaces, you could take one of those. Your appeal should focus on why School Y is the one that will suit your child. You will inevitably mention School X in that, but it has to be focused around specifics that School Y can provide for your child and X can't, not a general "we refused X because the results are poor"

So you could say, for example "My DD is a county level hockey player and School Y have a record holding hockey team, whilst School X doesn't play hockey at all".

SWStressed - The LA will include the offered school in their case regardless of whether or not you mention it. You may be asked why you rejected it. Most appeal panels have come across parents who think that, by rejecting the offered school, they can force the LA or the appeal panel to give them a place at the school they want. You need to make sure the appeal panel don't get the impression that is what you are doing.

Dear prh47bridge,
Can I get your opinion as I have accepted school we DO NOT WANT , will the panel Q why did we accepted if infact we do not want the school . We have actually viewed unwanted school and were not impressed from open evening but had no choice (central london) and included in CAF otherwise would be only 2 schools on CAF

Hi SWStressed I am writing my son's appeal letter right now! I have 5 columns on a piece of paper: my son's need (e.g. good at maths); facts to show this (e.g. SATs & extra provision at his primary school); appeal school's provision (e.g. in curriculum GCSEs & extra-curriculum); allocated school's provision (in case I am asked); evidence (e.g. letter from his primary head). Then I can turn these into loving crafted paragraphs about why this school (and by inference no other).

I am going through the schools' prospectuses line by line though not all the facts are easy to find (and appeal school not very helpful). Wished I had asked more penetrating fact-based questions at the open day.

Good luck with writing yours...

isky - No, the panel will not question that at all. They know that if you reject the offered school the LA is under no obligation to come up with another offer, so accepting the offer is the sensible thing to do. Also, as you have accepted the offer it is clear to the panel that you are not one of those parents who think they can bully their way into their preferred school by rejecting everything else. You will not be penalised for accepting the offered school.

hackneyLass - The admission authority (which is the LA for community schools, the school itself for VA schools, free schools and academies) must answer any reasonable question you ask to help you prepare for your appeal. If they do not do so you should highlight this to the appeal panel.

If this is a community school I would try asking the LA your questions.

How does Appeal Panel react to facts (if known) that parents did apply only for 2 schools knowing that perhaps they will not be accepted . Are they priority to be allocated schools via Appeal or depending on individual case?

I hope there is no pitty to such appeals as those parents might be just bullying the way through the system by claims "my child didnt get school" !

I know parents who did that as they didnt wish for their child to be allocated 3rd or4th choice schools hence applied for 2 on CAF and now appealing.

Unfortunately I have seen quite a few appeals where it has been the case that parents only applied for one or two schools. I don't think it is necessarily deliberate, a lot of people think they will get a certain school but they don't realise the catchment has shrunk or the admission criteria changed etc. If people do it deliberately they are really really stupid to be honest, it certainly will not help them get the school they want on appeal. Of course panels are human and feel sorry for people, but it certainly does not win them the appeal. If parents are doing it deliberately, they will likely be condemning their child to a long journey to a worse school than the local ones they rejected.

I urge people to use up all their choices. A not so great school locally is better than one you never heard of far away. I got my fifth and last choice for DD2. Last year people who live closer to the school than us didn't get in, if I was applying now I would use the sixth choice as well.

Isky, with regard to your first sentence, the appeals panel do not allocate schools to those with no offers - the admissions authority does that. The appeals panel just hears appeals from people who didn't get into particular schools.