In what respect is Private better than state education?

[halfrom]

Reading many of the posts I came to the conclusion that Private wasn't always better than state.

My main reasoning is A) If an entrance exam i.e 11+ is passed and the teachers at a particular school are supposed to be brilliant teachers, then why are some under performing students asked to leave. Surely the teachers can teach them to their required level. B) Some teachers are hand picked for ability as was my dh as a leader in a very specialised subject has visited most private/ Independant schools when required. However, he has also taught joe bloggs from down the street. Hence the children had same tutor, gained same results. Joe bloggs paid far less as a school didn't charge more. A friend has dd who has private Drama and speech coaching on saturday, does exams through I imagine same board as Private schools, and is a fantastic public speaker. So how do Privately educated children gain?

"Am I alone in thinking that there's a real ignorance about just how good some state schools are"
I feel the same just change the words state school for top independent. I too and I suspect probably uniquely am speaking from genuine experience of both the top boys boarding indie and the top performing comp I know how good state ed can be but I am under no illusions the indie is in a different league.

I couldn't agree more ...Happy Gardening, and that's after having attended a selective academic grammar school myself (though many moons ago) .

I'm afraid I think you lack knowledge of top state grammar type ethos and achievement though happy. And you do seem to assume that no-one currently within the state system can possibly have experience of Winchester etc. although I'm not sure quite why.

I've never said anything other than that the top independents give a fab education. And so they should. Plenty of resources and highly selective. But for some reason MNers with DC at top independents spend time strongly disputing the quality of provision at top states and,when they're not doing that, they bicker about which is best, Eton or Winchester, either of those and Harrow etc. Incredible really.

amber I have to say that the reasons you articulate for being so impressed with this top indie whose Open Day you attended do seem somewhat shallow?

seeker the reality is that independent and selective schools dominate entry to the top universities.
See this research
www.suttontrust.com/research/degree-of-success-university-chances-by-individual-school/

Yes, some state schools are wonderful but what do you do if you don't live by one?

Yellowtip I'm afraid I don't "lack knowledge of top state grammar type ethos and achievement" we have a friend who's a head at one of the countries top boys grammars I think he would ultimately agree with me! They are good so's my DS1 excellent comp but still not in the same league!

I don't think anyone denies that the top independents provide a fantastic education. And so they should- they have loads of money, are very selective and can quietly rusticate anyone liable to rock the boat.

But what those of us who support state education find difficult is the fact that most independent school "activists" (happy gardener usually being an honourable exception) seem to dismiss the idea that anyone can do well, or go to a Russell Group or even be clever at a state school, and that the only way to success is the independent route.

Maybe some of us hope that our children will be part of the solution not part of the problem?

Simply having a friend who's HT of a top grammar doesn't count as knowledge or experience happy. Why would it? On the things which count, these schools are far less different from your DS2's than the latter would care to admit.

seeker I went to the sort of state school that would make some parents on these boards shudder. I am now successful so I know you can be bright at any state school. What I also know is that at some (note - some not all) state schools you will not get the opportunity to fulfil your potential. We have bright shiny new academy near us where 38% of children get 5 gcses A-C (excluding equivalents). I cannot believe that only 38% of the cohort in that academy are capable of 5 gcses A-C so I really do question the quality of that school.

How are our children supposed to solve that?

When state school provision is so poor in some areas it is difficult to hear people who have access to really really good state schools criticising parents whose choice is between 38% of children getting 5 gcses A-C or paying for private.

BTW we do have another new Academy nearby which does get better a bit better results but recently one of the pupils was stabbed during the lunch hour so funnily enough that one doesn't appeal much.

This topic really exercises me. It is absolutely profoundly unfair that people are required to pay or take out a huge mortgage or move to a certain county to get the education they want (which, being human nature, is the best for their kids).

There are a full 45% children who really hate the sequential linear (you learn this, then you add on to that block - then recall it all) structure of academic education (19% of who are unteachable), yet, if you let them loose to work with their hands they have the most incredible design concepts. I worked at a seed capital fund, and the concepts out there looking for money were just amazing. You remember the wind up radio guy? I would talk to people like that every single day, amazing.

Then the averagely average who get forgotten about. We need to have a revolution in this country, a revolt of the parents; to prise the fingers of those fekkin 60s activists OFF our schools, and completely restructure education. So that they are in 3 tiers, firmly answering to the market place (results) and with the money coming directly from the parents not the state (perhaps with vouchers) so those Frankfurt school left wing twits lose any say they have. Except for a couple of Chomskyists, they can all go into society-changing huddle together and not contaminate the rest of us, grrrrr. Private schools would fade, the 'grammar' stream would expand, and we would get on with it!~

"When state school provision is so poor in some areas it is difficult to hear people who have access to really really good state schools criticising parents whose choice is between 38% of children getting 5 gcses A-C or paying for private."

I think what I get angry about is this being presented as a choice. It is not a choice for most people. Nothing pushes my buttons more on threads like these than the "We had to go private" posts.

So the parents who do have that choice should not exercise it because its not fair on those who can't?

So if you can afford to pay for a tutor for your child you shouldn't because other children in their state school can't afford one?

I didn't say we had to go private - I said that presented with those choices we would decide to go private, that's not the same thing at all.

Out of interest - does your DD's school get 38% of children through 5 gcse's A-C?

@Chaz Nobody is criticising people choosing to pay for education while that is a legal possibility. What I and some others are doing is criticising people with no first hand experience of genuine top state provision stating as if it was a fact that their children are receiving a better education at a private school on the basis that they have paid 33K so therefore it must be better.

Nope. My dd's school gets 98% A-C.

The school my ds will be going to in September, however, gets 41% A-C. And that includes equivalents. And last year 0% EBACC.

thetasigmamum

So how would you interpret this comment, if its not meant to be a criticism of people paying for private?

"seekerFri 02-Mar-12 14:27:20

Maybe some of us hope that our children will be part of the solution not part of the problem?"

At the end of the day they all do the same GCSEs it doesn?t really matter what school they go to as long as each child reach their full potential.

YellowTip Hmmm...How is aiming for great facilities, great aspirations from the get go, specialized help for Ivy league/Oxbridge aspirants, and ambitious peer group, as well as instilling confidence in public spekaing/ moving in certain social circles for one's DC "shallow reasons"...and to say networking /contacts are not important in the employability stakes these days (when they are as important if not more than academics in some spheres) is just not facing reality. It's exactly what folks do when they become Harvard Alumni also.

I know from experience, I have a successful career and see how it works in practice all the time.

As for an ignorance of what good state schools can offer .. .as above, I went to a very selective grammar school...it was academic, sure, though not sure for me that made it a "great education" ....I am talking about something more all -rounded here which goes beyond narrowness of A levels grading ......the type of grammar I went to is not in the same league on that score as the top of the range indies. There are mediocre indies that are worse than good state of course, but I am not aiming for those..I am aiming for the best all round education I can find for my DS...not just an exam factory ....I really wish I could get it for free, but we are one of the few countries, where many of middle classes feel they have to pay through thier noses to get the kind of education they should get for free for their kids (unlike places like Denmark, where it really is not the norm to go private because the state provision is so good and teaching is very much a profession)..it really is a crime, in my view.

"Maybe some of us hope that our children will be part of the solution not part of the problem?"

As it happened, that remark was directed at the post pointing out thqt a disporportionate amount of places at the top universities go to people from independent schools. I was pointing out that this can be dealt with two ways- by perpetuting the inequality by sending out children to private schools or by working to get the top universities to cast their nets a little wider.

seeker - serious question

What will you do if you feel your DS is not fulfilling his potential in that school, especially as your DD was able to go to a much better school?

Like the example I cited, I really struggle to believe that a school getting such low results is teaching the children properly. I am sure that the children in that school are more academically able that those sorts of results suggest. That to me is the real issue in education not whether a few % go private.

@Chaz as a criticism of the system, not of individuals.

I don't know, Chaz. The thing is, we have no choice.....

But the issue here is not just the few % that go private, but the 25% that go to grammar.