I need appeal proceedure advice please

[VivaLeBeaver]

DD didn't get into the Grammar school she wanted to go to - they allocate places on distance and although kids from this village normally get in this year they haven't. Am gutted for her.

Do we have any groundsfor appeal. I'm sure they've fulfilled the admission criteria correctly so what can I do if anything?

School is a language specialist school but then so is the one she has been offered a place at. No medical conditions or special needs, etc.

There was a mum in my village who two years ago got her ds into the school I'm now appealing for on appeal. She says that the only thing they appealed for was on friendship - she apaprantly just said that all her son's friends would be going to school x. Even though 90% of his primary class were actually going to school y. It worked, she got in.

Well done Viva, youre ahead of me. Am just doing my second draught of my appeal letter. Just to correct someone further up this thread, we are not appealing the grammar place but a comp on the basis that school allocated will not facilitate her taking GCSE spanish or GCSE dance. We will also be adding that DDs two closest friends are attending the school for which we are appealing just to add a bit of weight. does anyone know if the panel will have access to our DDs school records? she is a very able child, has consistently been at the top of the top groups but don't know if this will have any relevance to her appeal. Also wondered whether an expression of support from her head pertaining to her character and academic abilities would be desirable or just seen as quite irrelevant. Don't want to appear a pushy mum stating my case by emphasizing what a great asset she would be to the school (which of course she will) if their eyes just glaze over having already, undoubtedly, read many appeals with parents stating the same

Okay..mixed experience lol!

I am appealing on behalf of my DS who does not have a diagnosis of SN, but is bit quirky and finds it hard to make new friends, despite abundant opportunities. The two friends DS has now are the ones he made in reception, but they are off to a different school from the one he has been allocated to. There have been instances of meanness from other children which he has weathered, partly through being able to turn to his friends, but we have not made a big deal out of it, so nothing is on record, all dealt with verbally. Hmm...

Apologies VivaLeBeaver for hijacking your thread.Iit was very kind of you to offer your advice! I wish I had some for you, other than when I went to grammar school back in the dark ages, at least 4 people got in after first being allocated a different school...

Well done Viva!

You are very lucky that your head will back your appeal. I has to persuade ours to because in this area the heads are very much discouraged to support appeals and I think our head has very strong feelings against grammar schools. But she could see I had good points so she did write a letter in the end. I had letters from the head, class teacher and SENCO as ds has AS.

If your dd is dyslexic you should also get another letter of support from the school SENCO, she could write about how your dd copes with her dyslexia. Also, if you know that extra time will be given for your dd in her SATs, make sure that is documented in time for you to submit it. I'm sure you will know by know that you need evidence for everything, so making it known that your dd will be given extra time in her SATs will carry more weight than just saying that she didn't get it in her 11+.

Again, I did something simelar with ds because he has AS, and we won. Our school is notoriously difficult to get in on appeal as well, ds is one of only 3 children in the whole school that are there on appeal.

I was also advised to give evidence about how children with AS cope with exams and about what sort of procedures are often put in place for them, and I got some great leaflets from the NAS about this because I felt it would help explain why ds passed but didn't score highly enough to guarantee a place. Maybe you condo get something simelar from a dyslexia charity?

Drivinmecrazy, I don't think the panel will access anything that you don't provide, so give copies of her reports yourself. Support from the head is always good, but you need to focus on why your dd needs a place at the school, not why the school would want her as an asset to them.

But my advice is only as a parent who was in this position last year, there are experts on here that will give better advice than I can.

I haven't asked about her getting extra time in her SATS. Who do I need to ask? Never met the school's SENCO and neither has DD. They've never done anything for her.

Though to be honest I think our situation is different - DD passed the 11plus and places are then allocated on distance, not on score. So I'm not really arguing saying if she'd had more time she'd have got a better mark.

What I'm telling the school is that yes she has dyslexia but is still doing really well (I don't want grammar school thinking they don't want a dyslexic kid in who may bring hteir grades down). But I'm saying that I want her to go to a school where the other children are academic and interested in learning because if she's in an environment which might be slightly disruptive she struggles to concentrate because of her dyslexia.

I'd go through the class teacher and if s/he thinks you need to go to the SENCO hopefully you will be referred on. In my limited opinion it is really worth doing because it might help her in her SATS anyway, and it might help explain why your dd didn't get a high enough score to guarantee a GS place. Although I realise it might not work like that in your area, it did in ours because the places are awarded to the top scores and then others are put on the waiting list like ds was. I had to try and explain why his score wasn't high enough to get a guaranteed place, so it helped us to be able to say that the school would be doing things for his SATs that weren't done in the 11+. He has As btw.

X posted!

Can you find any evidence to show that the school deals well with dyslexia in their prospectus or in the OFSTED report? Then you could use it as one of your reasons why she would benefit from a place at that particular school.

If you can find evidence to support your claim that she is likely to do better in a less disruptive environment where the other children are academic then submit it with your appeal.

Evidence is key, so search everything you can about dyslexia until you find quotes that back up your opinion.

drivinmecrazy - appeal members do not have access to school records of any kind but if you submit reports with your appeal papers then panel members should read them. The panel has to weigh up whether giving a place to a particular child at a particular school is fair in comparison to the other 30 or so children already offered places. Does 1 more, 2 more child(ren) etc add or detract from the education of the other 30 or so already in the class ?

They score outstanding on their Ofsted for helping children with special needs so I've quoted that.

I need to find some evidence that children with dyslexia may struggle concentrating if other kids are being disruptive.

Ideally I need to find some evidence that the comp she's been allocated is likely to be more disruptive than the Grammar - how the hell do I do that?

VivaLe Beaver - Much better to focus on the positives of the Grammar as opposed to negatives of the comp, the panel want to know why the school you are appealing for is the best match for your child not why the school you have been allocated is not. Are there any other schools in the area with outstanding ranking for their SEN provision ? If so it will weaken your case, if not it will strengthen etc. Can you show that pupils with SEN go on to achieve better results than might be expected at the Grammar ?

I was also advised not to try and discredit the other school, and after our hearing I found out the same panel also heard appeals for our comp, so it would have seemed wrong or rude somehow. I even told the truth which was that I liked the comp and had a high opinion of it, I just knew it would be the wrong environment for my ds.

I am so very sorry you have had bad news. I had a terrible time when my son went on to secondary two years ago. We were offered our 6th choice of school. I decided to appeal to two schools and although armed with a very strong argument I was unsuccessful. The upshot is, to get a place on appeal an extra place is created in the class and from the schools point of view this implicates the other children. I understand the only way to win an appeal is on health or social issues.
My son eventually got a place at our 3rd choice by coming through on the waiting list in late August and is happy but sadly it seems we can't always get exactly what we want :(
Good luck if you do appeal, nothing ventured, nothing gained! But make sure you eat well and rest when you can! the whole process nearly killed me and not sure I have recovered yet!!

OK, will concentrate on the benefits of the school I want. I've found some info out about dyslexia and concentration levels.

Lenkamew - I know what you mean, I really feel that I'm not sure I can cope with the emotianal energy and upset. The last few months have been stressful enough, waiting for 11plus results, then waiting for yesterday. I'm exhausted and am having to plough on for another 3 months or so.

I feel for you Viva and Lenka, I know when I was going through appeal it was like the rest of life just went on hold and it took over everything.

I just want to disagree a little bit about the upshot of winning a place on appeal means that an extra space has to be created. In theory, that is completely correct, and I'm sure it is correct for some schools sometimes. But I know now that didn't happen in my ds's case, because there are at least two children that I know of that were offered a place from the waiting list after ds had been awarded his place. So the school did not end up having any more pupils than they would have done without us winning the appeal, it just meant that there was one less waiting list child offered a place. The school did not have to go over PAN at all, despite their case for not admitting my ds being based completely on that.

If I had my hearing again, I might ask the school representative when the last waiting list place was offered in the previous two years, just to give the panel the thought that the school does not neccesarily have to go over PAN if they admit an extra child. Although they might know that anyway and it might not make a difference to your appeal Viva. You would have to wait until you get to see the schools case to know.

IUseTooMuchKitchenRoll - I have to disagree.

What must have happened in your case is that another child dropped out after you won your appeal. As this brought them back down to PAN there was no vacancy so they did not have to offer the place to anyone.

If there is a vacancy and there is a child applying they must fill the vacancy. They cannot hold places open for possible successful appeals. The panel will know that there would not be an appeal if there was a vacancy so it is pointless suggesting that the school is not full up. It is. And there is no point enquiring about waiting list movement. The panel is specifically prohibited from admitting a child on the basis that it will be all right because other children are bound to leave.

Fair enough Prh, I wouldn't argue with your expertise!

All I know is that in my ds's year group, there are the number of pupils that there are supposed to be, and I know that at least two of them were offered places after my ds won his place.

You are right that others must have dropped out, so at some point there probably was too many pupils on the list for entry in year 7. But I'm fairly certain that didn't last long, and when the first person dropped out they just didn't replace them because they had my ds. Then when two other people dropped out they will have been able to fill those places from the waiting list.

Either way, the end result is that the school does not end up over PAN, and I know they are not over PAN in the current year 9 where there is another pupil who got a place on appeal.

I know the school can't hold open places and have to fill vacancies, and Im not suggesting that the school isn't full. I'm just suggesting that there is a lot of waiting list movement and that even when a child is admitted on appeal, there is still a good chance that come September the school will not have to go above PAN.

Can I say what I believe from practical experience of chairing panels what the majority of panels will and will not be influenced by.

They will not be influenced by any information about capability of pupils, unless it is about a grammar school and they are borderline to a pass mark.
They will not be influenced by anything like swimming certificates, dance certificates etc unless there is a direct relevance to a reason for admission.
Pictures of the pupil
Heads and teachers are told that they are not allowed to write letters of support on individual pupils, but some still do and they will not be given much weight by the panel.
Panels are not allowed to take into consideration that a school is "better" than another or the only one that my child wants to go to.
What a panel is looking for is a reasoned argument as why your child would be advantaged by going to the school of preference, not all the negatives that you can find about the allocated school.
Panels also accept that this is vitally important to many parents and children and that feelings run amok at times but tears will not influence the panel. They will get you sympathy and probably a tissue but no preferential treatment.
Parents also have to be reasonable, it is no use saying one more in the class will make no difference (and I accept often it might not) but that is not a valid argument when 30 parents are appealing for a place!

Well having also sat on appeal panels for the last 5 years the issue of friends as part of a reason for appeal would carry little or no weight. The other comments previous to this have been really useful as pointers for an appeal with legs!

Well having also sat on appeal panels for the last 5 years the issue of friends as part of a reason for appeal would carry little or no weight. The other comments previous to this have been really useful as pointers for an appeal with legs!

This is very interesting to me as my ds has dyslexia and I am also thinking of appealing. Do you think I can contact the sen department of the school to try and find out what advantages the school may have for dyslexia, would I just be able to phone them do you think? My ds has an ed psy assessment that is 4 years old. Do you think there should include is with the appeal?

Just to add to admission's comments, an appeal panel will not like it if they feel the parents are trying to bully or blackmail them into allowing the appeal. That won't find against you just for that reason but you are less likely to get the benefit of any doubt.

And I agree that friendship issues are very unlikely to win an appeal.

frankie3 - You can certainly ask the school what they can offer to help dyslexics but I would be surprised if you win an appeal on that basis. You need to identify things the preferred school offers which the allocated school does not. I may be wrong but I suspect you will find that there is little to choose between them in terms of what they offer dyslexics.

Thanks prh.

Apart from if the LA has made a mistake with their admission policy, I wonder how people win appeals and for what reasons??

People win appeals for all kinds of reasons. It is very difficult to predict the outcome of any appeal. Sometimes the case to refuse admission is so weak that any appeal will succeed, sometimes it is so strong that even the strongest appeal will fail.

If there is no mistake, all you can do is show the ways in which your preferred school is the most suitable school for your child. You should look at everything. It may offer subjects the other school doesn't which would be good for your son. There may be after school clubs or similar activities which would be particularly useful to your son. Look at everything about the school that makes it different from the offered school and see if there is anything that makes it particularly suitable for your son. If you can back it up with independent evidence showing that this school is better it will help.