Super-selectives: how do we know if we're kidding ourselves?

[teaandthorazine]

"There were 1458 boys applied for admission to Sutton Grammar School for the 120 available places for entry in September 2011. 404 of the boys tested were deemed to be of selective ability."

So, over a thousand boys took the test and didn't even reach the pass mark? I knew it was competitive out there but honestly didn't realise it was quite this bad.

How do you/did you know that your child was 'grammar material' (horrible phrase but there we go)? Because I can't believe that anyone would put their child in for an exam they didn't think they could pass. And yet... a thousand kids...

Did your primary school give an idea? Or did you just think, hell, let's give it go, nothing to lose? I feel really naive and a bit shocked now!

Thanks for the post Gazz. It's so helpful for us who will be in your shoes next year...In Sept already! Parents are so secretive and defensive in DS primary, I really really appreciate you sharing all this.

No worries and glad that can be of some use. Happy to help if you have any more queries...

Yes, DS's year parents were fine but in the year below there's a lot of covert operations. You get to realise who the real Tiger Parents are!

Good luck!

Agree that speed is important - working at great speed isn't really required for SATs and not in itself a sign of intelligence, I don't think, as speed of reading does not necessarily = speed of thought, as visual things like eye tracking ability can affect this too. Nevetheless, it is true that being able to read at speed will make life easier at a grammar school, so maybe it is reasonable to test this skill here too.

My experience has been completely different to cleek's - of my dd's group of 5 friends applying for grammar, the only two who got in were those who did not have private tutoring but did have supportive parents who home-tutored (fairly lightly).

Congrats gazza.

We still haven't answered the question in the OP though. Given that a "pass" doesn't guarantee you a place, far from it, why do so many children take the test who won't even pass? Is it that they are failing by very narrow margins, are the parents deluded or conned by tutors, or do they just think it's worth a pop and on a multiple choice test they might get every question right by fluke?

I personally feel, but only from our limited experience, that a lot of parents are a bit deluded about their children's abilities. Not quite sure why. But maybe the whole thread given to Gifted and Talented on this site says it all??? In DS's class about 12 children in all probably took at least one grammar school exam and apart from the four who passed at least one, would say that there was probably one very near miss (who is usually on the same level as DS at school) who only missed out on at least two passes by about 3 or 4 points. Most of the others were not really bright enough. It's harsh but true.

That's why when people go on about some of the grammar schools being superselective I do wonder really how competitive they really are. If about one third of the children are not really of the right level then are they any more competitive than in other areas?

By the way the laws of statistics say that it's highly unlikely that a child would guess every question correctly by fluke. That just doesn't happen.

What would be interesting to see is how many of the children have passed all the exams they've taken rather than just one? You would assume they are the 'core' clever ones or ones with a certain ability. I would say that one pass is more likely to be a 'fluke' wouldn't you?

I also think that there is far too much spin around having tutors. I think there is a certain kudos (money talks) about being able to say your DCs have a tutor. But it seems to me that most educated parents are just as capable of giving their children the correct tutoring if not more so...

Some of the parents at school look at me as if we are alien beings because we have tutored our own child. It's a type of 'wow' how did you do it? It's not difficult if you have a clever child to start with! They just need guidance not intensive force-feeding of information

sorry rant over!

Yes I realise that actually passing at random is vanishingly unlikely given 100?200? questions and a 1/5 chance of guessing each, but it probably does influence some over optimistic parents to give it a shot - realistically luck might carry you up 1%.

I guess most parents try to focus on their children's strengths rather than weaknesses, and that's normally a good thing - but not necessarily if it leads to years of coaching in pointless NVR training.

I think I was being a bit harsh tBQH. The problem is that as a parent you don't know whether you are deluded about your children's ability or not. We know DS was in the top group all through primary school (and still is) but then it depends on how clever the cohort at your DCs' school is. We didn't know if he would pass any/all of the 11+ exams. Once he had passed one, then two it was beginning to look like he had the necessary skill set and ability. But if all the exams are sandwiched into September/early October it's going to be all or nothing for most parents.

The problem is that from DS's classmates experience I would say that entering them for the exams gives the DCs expectations of their own and the feeling of entitlement to a grammar school place. There have been a lot of tears this week when children who have done the grammar school exams but not passed have 'only' got their fall-back, safety net school options and feel short-changed.... Is that fair on them?

It's a very difficult one......

XXXXX

K

theas from next year, one will no longer be able to put 3 choices of GS on preference form, 1 only.
The 5 schools are having entrance tests in September and giving results prior to preferences for Secondary School being submitted, effectively telling applicants which GS they'd have a chance of getting into.

Not sure if the other 3 GS in the north of the authority will fall into line with this (SGS likely, and BV i'd have thought, HG has entirely different tests I understand).

No idea if fee-paying schools will adapt to this timetable too, and of course the 5 are academies now...

My ds attends a local primary school. He passed the 11 plus exams to a grammar school and a couple of public schools. He had no private tutors or hours and hours of practice either. He loves reading so I bought him many books(picked the lists from the top schools websites) and I bought him CGP books that he worked through them at his own pace covering all the topics that they don't cover at his school. No stress... helped as well. A couple of dc at his school were tutored for a couple of year before the exam date but didn't pass!

"hard on the kids who feel they've failed AND wasted huge amounts of time and effort on achieving this AND feel guilty for costing their parents that much"

How on earth can spending time with your child ever be a waste ?
If our children don't pass they have at least had an hour a week with dad in starbucks, the car journey there and back having a laugh and an hour a week with the tutor practicing maths and english, that's money well spent what ever the outcome if you ask me.
Any parent that makes them feel guilty is a monster and the 11+ is probably the least of that child's worries.

Swanker that's really interesting that you'll only be able to put one grammar down. Being given, as understand it , your mark in the test and last years " mark above which places were allocated" is sort of helpful but isn't the " well she's above the pass mark so she's in" as many will believe it is.

My 3 sat for BV/ SCGS ( and ds almost sat for HG as well we were so worried!)- the poor kids pent most of year 6 doing exams - but to their credit coped fine and in a way have been able to look back and say " we coped with that " and gain confidence from it.

Not sure if the independents will change exam dates given the september 11+ but it's given the prep schools a huge headache I understand!

Well- the foundation have given a reasonable amount of notice, I think. (though am v thankful I don't have a Y5 child atm! ... and I know 1 prep head is going in July too... spooky co-incidence?)

Of course CH demand higher pass mark than FW and H/A, so I am assuming they will give applicants an indication of which school they are likely to gain a place at. How awful if your only choice was CH, but mark only good enough for FW, so get nothing?